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StealthyBlagga

Despicable Behavior and Rule 6.4.4: "barred from competition"

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6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at the match director’s discretion, if the person:
a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or
b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match, or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

6.4.5 A Match Director enforcing Rule 6.4.4 must submit a detailed report to USPSA within seven days of the occurrence.

 

How broadly can/should 6.4.4 be interpreted when it comes to despicable behavior. I am thinking of a specific case in which a competitor pre-registers and pre-pays for a major match slot, then - at the last minute - decides not to turn up. The match goes ahead as scheduled and that competitor's slot goes unfilled. After the match, the competitor submits a charge-back on their credit card to get a refund they don't deserve per the clear match refund policy, and this has a significant negative financial impact on the match. Does rule 6.4.4.a give the MD the ability to declare this competitor persona non grata at his matches going forwards?

 

 

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This isnt a rulebook issue. I would just reach out to HQ directly about this and request the persons membership be look at. This is fraudulent and should not be tolerated. USPSA has taken the stance of not banning cheaters... but maybe they will ban those who steal from the org directly. 

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A couple thoughts... you should be able to defend against the credit card charge back... if you caught it in time...
when you show the policy for refunds- I’ve seen them deny the chargeback.

Next- I agree this is something for your Section Coordinator and Area Director to know about..

They will be best to handle this..
Also let your nearby club MDs know PRIVATELY who said person was.. they may have more challenges with them. A single incident may not make a case for a ban... but as someone said before you have to be careful with any comments of the persons name due to the litigious society we live in.

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12 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

A couple thoughts... you should be able to defend against the credit card charge back... if you caught it in time...
when you show the policy for refunds- I’ve seen them deny the chargeback.

 

Unfortunately, despite submitting what we felt was cast-iron evidence, including copies of the refund policy, evidence that the event went ahead etc., the bank upheld the charge-back. This was not a surprise to us - banks are known for siding overwhelmingly  with their customers on such matters.

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After the match, the competitor submits a charge-back on their credit card to get a refund they don't deserve per the clear match refund policy, and this has a significant negative financial impact on the match. Does rule 6.4.4.a give the MD the ability to declare this competitor persona non grata at his matches going forwards?
 
 

I would agree that this is a bit of a subjective call - however I would say No, that doesn’t meet the criteria to ban someone from future matches per the rules cited.

At the end of the day, you have a simple issue of managing a refund dispute. If you had a clearly stated refund policy which was well documented (as you state you do) then I expect you should prevail in your reasoning for not issuing a refund with the CC company.

The attendee in question never showed, so he didn’t violate any gun safety rules nor showed any sort of inability to safely complete a COF.

I get how frustrating it is for someone to back out of a paid event at the last minute, especially if you aren’t overcharging for a profit and you are counting on every dollar from every attendee. I’ve managed such events myself and it’s a tough line to walk - making the fee low enough that it is affordable but not putting yourself or your club at risk of losing money in the process. However, I personally interpret this rule to be intended to bar someone who has proven to be unsafe or mentally unfit to be trusted to be safe in a USPSA match. This refund dispute doesn’t meet that standard, IMHO.


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Posted (edited)

Credit card company's always side with the card holder . It is very rare that they will side with the merchant. It has happened to me a couple of times. Sucks.

My 2 cents worth. Charge backs are the same as a bounced check. He is a crook. He should be banned from USPSA. My opinion.

Edited by Squishy

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Posted (edited)

I would contact the shooter directly, show them the refund policy they signed up for and see what they have to say for themselves. If they are unable to convince you they were not being a D#%& then I would put them on your personal and any other MDs you knows lists and "accidentally" withdraw them from any match they sign for, if they are particularly rude I may "accidentally" withdraw them a only a day or two before said match and have a replacement shooter standing by for the spot.

Edited by MikeBurgess

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1 hour ago, JohnStewart said:

The attendee in question never showed, so he didn’t violate any gun safety rules nor showed any sort of inability to safely complete a course of fire.

Why would you intentionally leave out the next paragraph of the rule? Stealing and cheating most certainly bring disrepute to the sport

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match, or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

 

 

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I agree with starting with your Section and Area Directors.  If they need to run it to HQ they can.

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1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

I would contact the shooter directly, show them the refund policy they signed up for and see what they have to say for themselves...

 

We did - the person was unrepentant and not interested in taking any responsibility for their decision.

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I wouldn't institute a formal ban. This competitor simply owes you the amount of the chargeback. Until he settles his tab, he is unable to enter any of your matches. It's up to this joker whether he wants to stand on principle and give up USPSA or he wants to shoot.

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IMO SCs/ADs, more often than not, ignore or don't care about issues brought to them. Maybe its my personal experience, but I have little to no faith in USPSA as an organization doing the right thing.

 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. 

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2 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at the match director’s discretion, if the person:
a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or
b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match, or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

6.4.5 A Match Director enforcing Rule 6.4.4 must submit a detailed report to USPSA within seven days of the occurrence.

 

How broadly can/should 6.4.4 be interpreted when it comes to despicable behavior. I am thinking of a specific case in which a competitor pre-registers and pre-pays for a major match slot, then - at the last minute - decides not to turn up. The match goes ahead as scheduled and that competitor's slot goes unfilled. After the match, the competitor submits a charge-back on their credit card to get a refund they don't deserve per the clear match refund policy, and this has a significant negative financial impact on the match. Does rule 6.4.4.a give the MD the ability to declare this competitor persona non grata at his matches going forwards?

 

 

 

#1 - Getting his money back for a service or product he DID NOT receive is legally acceptable. 

#2 - Rule 6.4.4 "barring" ONLY applies to that ONE single USPSA match, NOT any match events going forward.

#3 - If your barring a competitor is solely based on your "refunds policy",  then the MD - DOES NOT have the right to enforce USPSA competitor "barring" rules (6.4.4) , since his getting a refund alone DOES NOT meet those detailed (6.4.4) requirements of:  " match disruption", "safe completion of fire" and  "disrepute"

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1 hour ago, Glockster1 said:

 

#1 - Getting his money back for a service or product he DID NOT receive is legally acceptable. 

 

i don't agree with this at all.  if the (no) refund policy was laid out in the registration legalese, then that should/would be binding.  golf courses and all sorts of businesses (airlines, etc) have no-show policies where if you don't cancel within an x-hour window, you've lost your money.

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1 hour ago, ClangClang said:

I wouldn't institute a formal ban. This competitor simply owes you the amount of the chargeback. Until he settles his tab, he is unable to enter any of your matches. It's up to this joker whether he wants to stand on principle and give up USPSA or he wants to shoot.

what he apparently did was anything but principled.  of course we've only heard one side of the story, though no reason to doubt it.

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So the action that should be taken moving forward is some lawyer written legalese in the disclaimer you must agree to prior to being approved to register..

that will have some semblance of you lose your right to refund if you request a refund after a certain date.

Then the clause where the match reserves the right to, and you acknowledge the acceptance of, a request to the garnishment of wages to recoup funds should you get a credit card reversal.

But I’m no lawyer...

If this becomes a trend, that is what I can see....



But I also see matches going back to paper checks/money orders... can’t stop payment after it is cashed....

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As an MD you can refuse registration for future matches for this dirt bag. That or mandate that their registration be paid in cash up front while handing them a printed copy of the refund policy.

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7 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

As an MD you can refuse registration for future matches for this dirt bag. That or mandate that their registration be paid in cash up front while handing them a printed copy of the refund policy.

I agree with Cha-Lee.  Burn the match with this behavior and why should a match director let this guy into future matches.  Not talking about locals.  This would apply to Level 2s and up where there are sunk costs to operate the match and having a charge back like this could tip the balance of the match into the red.

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16 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Who is he?

We don't get into that here.

If you want to know, PM the OP, but don't post it here.

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5 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at the match director’s discretion, if the person:
a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or
b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match, or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

6.4.5 A Match Director enforcing Rule 6.4.4 must submit a detailed report to USPSA within seven days of the occurrence.

 

How broadly can/should 6.4.4 be interpreted when it comes to despicable behavior. I am thinking of a specific case in which a competitor pre-registers and pre-pays for a major match slot, then - at the last minute - decides not to turn up. The match goes ahead as scheduled and that competitor's slot goes unfilled. After the match, the competitor submits a charge-back on their credit card to get a refund they don't deserve per the clear match refund policy, and this has a significant negative financial impact on the match. Does rule 6.4.4.a give the MD the ability to declare this competitor persona non grata at his matches going forwards?

 

 

 

USPSA clubs operate on private property just about 99.99999999% of the time.

 

People can be trespassed from private property for any reason or no reason at all.

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This is my biggest pet peeve. Don’t No show me. I have a long memory for that 

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Small Claims Court?  Might be a PITA, might work......

 

Other than that - make future matches invitationals, as in you need an invitation to be allowed to register.  Or decline to accept credit cards for registration.  Cash or check only?  

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Why make the registration process painful for everyone due to the actions of one bad apple. Practiscore match registration Administration allows the MD to “Approve” each shooter and the timing of their payment. This bad apple could be denied approval until payment via cash was received. Then allow all other competitors to register and pay in a normal manner. 
 

Since this bad apple received an unjustified refund, I would also add that prior owed match fee to any new registrations. They would either not attend again or pay what they owe. Hopefully that would be a sufficient lesson for them to not pull that crap again.

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5 hours ago, davsco said:

i don't agree with this at all.  if the (no) refund policy was laid out in the registration legalese, then that should/would be binding.  golf courses and all sorts of businesses (airlines, etc) have no-show policies where if you don't cancel within an x-hour window, you've lost your money.

 

To be fair there's an extra level of complexity where the merchant has an agreement with the credit card company, listing where chargebacks are and aren't acceptable. The person organizing the match is bound to this merchant agreement, even where contracts you make with the cardbearer might contradict it.

For example if my merchant agreement with the CC company says "cardbearer may chargeback in instances where the product/service is not received or is significantly different from described", nothing I try and bind the cardholder to in terms of agreeing to no refunds will fly. I could say 'but you said you were fine with no refunds' and the CC company will say 'you agreed to give refunds under these conditions'. I speak as a merchant who sells nonrefundable deposits and wins chargebacks.

So in winning the chargeback what he did may have been "legal", you can only argue about whether or not it was morally correct.

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