Despicable Behavior and Rule 6.4.4: "barred from competition"

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Balakay said:

NC Sectional??  

 

 

Yes I think that was it. 

[StealthyBlagga]

55 minutes ago, promtcy said:

What was the plan had you been told you couldn't safely hold the match?

 

When running any major match, the vast majority of funds are spent well before the match dates, so giving a full refund at the last minute is typically not feasible. The options we considered were:

 

1) Cancel with a partial refund. Likely the refund would have been much less than the 30% we eventually gave because the fixed pool of $$$ would be spread 3x thinner.

2) Postpone to later in the year. Obviously, this is challenging for competitors and staff who would have to clear out their schedules, book holiday time, make new travel arrangements etc. Complicating this is the fact that, our home range is very active, with a full competitive calendar already, so finding a slot would be a problem. Lastly, summer conditions here in AZ take the hottest months - May to August - out of play for a major (too many weak people coming from out of state ).

3) Cancel and give everyone a free entry for the 2021 match. The sunk costs would have to be eaten, but prizes, targets etc. could be put into storage for a year. Realistically, this was probably the most likely outcome if we had not been able to find a way to run the match under appropriate protocols.

[Glockster1]

On 5/13/2020 at 6:55 PM, NickBlasta said:

 

"nothing I try and bind the cardholder to in terms of agreeing to no refunds will fly. I could say 'but you said you were fine with no refunds' and the CC company will say 'you agreed to give refunds under these conditions'. I speak as a merchant who sells nonrefundable deposits and wins chargebacks."

 

"CC company"?. You mean your Merchant Services company. But then you say you win chargebacks. That is contradicting.

 

As a merchant, if YOU have a pre-arranged agreement with your Merchant Services company that you DO NOT give refunds unless the customer did not receive their product(s) within (45) days from the date of sale, then the Merchant Services company WILL honor a "NO REFUNDS" policy that YOU have in your website Terms of Service agreement that your customer agreed to when that person placed their order. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Glockster1
edit

[promtcy]

On 5/15/2020 at 12:29 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

 

When running any major match, the vast majority of funds are spent well before the match dates, so giving a full refund at the last minute is typically not feasible. The options we considered were:

 

1) Cancel with a partial refund. Likely the refund would have been much less than the 30% we eventually gave because the fixed pool of $$$ would be spread 3x thinner.

2) Postpone to later in the year. Obviously, this is challenging for competitors and staff who would have to clear out their schedules, book holiday time, make new travel arrangements etc. Complicating this is the fact that, our home range is very active, with a full competitive calendar already, so finding a slot would be a problem. Lastly, summer conditions here in AZ take the hottest months - May to August - out of play for a major (too many weak people coming from out of state ).

3) Cancel and give everyone a free entry for the 2021 match. The sunk costs would have to be eaten, but prizes, targets etc. could be put into storage for a year. Realistically, this was probably the most likely outcome if we had not been able to find a way to run the match under appropriate protocols.

Thanks, Good to know. Never shot any match where it had to be pre-paid so I wasn't aware of the normal protocol. 

[pjb45]

Just some background:

StealthyBlagga runs incredible matches. 

The courses of fire are tested and trued.  But what a majority of people do not see but appreciate is the effort that goes into a major match.  Prize table aside.  The pre-set up crew, people who build the props, ensure existing equipment works is a Herculean effort.  They all have full time jobs and family. 

The set up crew works around the schedule of the Sportsman's Club.  The calendar is packed.  The match is set up and the match crew takes over.  After the match, the same volunteer crew takes down the complete match so Monday the rest of the 5,000 members can use the range. 

The directors of the sub-division and match went out of their way to do the equitable execution in these these extraordinary circumstances.

 

This one individual felt they deserve better treatment than everyone else.  Well that is human nature.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cellguy030]

On 5/13/2020 at 8:55 PM, NickBlasta said:

 

For example if my merchant agreement with the CC company says "cardbearer may chargeback in instances where the product/service is not received or is significantly different from described", nothing I try and bind the cardholder to in terms of agreeing to no refunds will fly. I could say 'but you said you were fine with no refunds' and the CC company will say 'you agreed to give refunds under these conditions'. I speak as a merchant who sells nonrefundable deposits and wins chargebacks.
 

 

Couple references in this thread to the product or service, IMO the product for the fee is the slot in the match... not the completion of the match. maybe for those that are concerned about this simply need to change the wording of the registration for what is being paid for.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, cellguy030 said:

 IMO the product for the fee is the slot in the match... not the completion of the match.

 

That may be your opinion, but your opinion is incorrect.

[NickBlasta]

2 hours ago, cellguy030 said:

 

Couple references in this thread to the product or service, IMO the product for the fee is the slot in the match... not the completion of the match. maybe for those that are concerned about this simply need to change the wording of the registration for what is being paid for.

 

The language you use is important.

 

It helps to be up front that a service is being provided to the buyer rather than a product. A product can or can not be delivered, pretty black and white. A service you are arguably already providing (registering a person, squadding them, building the match on their behalf) it can help you win chargebacks more easily.

[cellguy030]

52 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

That may be your opinion, but your opinion is incorrect.

Well, if you look at it from the MDs standpoint, Im selling slots in a match.  If you withdraw before a certain date your slot is refunded.  if not, weather you shoot the match or not, show up or not, DQ or not,  your slot is not refunded.  This is the basis of the OPs situation... so again, IMO, the product sold is the slot. 

[pjb45]

This was a minor discussion today at a match (Az).  Most felt, it was clearly articulated in the sign up the rules for refunds.  Signing the PS enrollment, the individual was cognizant of the refund policy. These are terms and conditions for the match.  He agreed.

 

The competitor chose an approach outside of the terms and conditions.

 

SMM3G  tried to do right.

 

Again the competitor chose a different approach.

 

He violated his terms and conditions.  He exercise his legal right.  SMM3G compensated for his behavior.

 

Debate ad infinitum, the deal is done. He is a selfish jerk.  However, we do not know his individual circumstances.  Maybe the monies are critical to him.  We do not know.  

 

There is no recourse.  SMM3G will continue as if all competitors are reasonable and rational.

  

 

.

[SGT_Schultz]

17 hours ago, pjb45 said:

This was a minor discussion today at a match (Az).  Most felt, it was clearly articulated in the sign up the rules for refunds.  Signing the PS enrollment, the individual was cognizant of the refund policy. These are terms and conditions for the match.  He agreed.

 

The competitor chose an approach outside of the terms and conditions.

 

SMM3G  tried to do right.

 

Again the competitor chose a different approach.

 

He violated his terms and conditions.  He exercise his legal right.  SMM3G compensated for his behavior.

 

Debate ad infinitum, the deal is done. He is a selfish jerk.  However, we do not know his individual circumstances.  Maybe the monies are critical to him.  We do not know.  

 

There is no recourse.  SMM3G will continue as if all competitors are reasonable and rational.

  

 

.

 

Have you been admitted to the bar yet?

[Intheshaw1]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Have you been admitted to the bar yet?

I'm curious as to how professional sports handle it. You buy a ticket that gives you entry to watch an event, it doesn't matter if you attend or not, you paid for entry. If something comes up and you cannot attend, it's not like you can contest the CC payment since you didn't go to the game.

 

With a sporting ticket you are paying for entry, not to watch the event. You can get kicked out or barred from entry for many reasons without refund (mostly thinking being too drunk). I view this the same way, you are paying for entry, not the completion of the event.

 

I get that when an event is cancelled it poses a different scenario but that's what's happening now and to my knowledge the NBA and MLB has yet to issue any refunds.  I'm sure they will just give vouchers to figure games, similar to what airlines have been doing. Strange times that's for sure and MDs will struggle to make the best of it. I know locally we just started hosting matches again but they are called at 50 people, hard to make money with less than half the normal attendance.

[EEH]

So if you are selling spots at a match and I buy, it’s mine right. Here’s my question , if I can’t go then I can give my spot to anyone who wants it right? How does this effect the wait list ?  Just some questions.

[pjb45]

2 hours ago, Intheshaw1 said:

I'm curious as to how professional sports handle it. You buy a ticket that gives you entry to watch an event, it doesn't matter if you attend or not, you paid for entry. If something comes up and you cannot attend, it's not like you can contest the CC payment since you didn't go to the game.

 

With a sporting ticket you are paying for entry, not to watch the event. You can get kicked out or barred from entry for many reasons without refund (mostly thinking being too drunk). I view this the same way, you are paying for entry, not the completion of the event.

 

I get that when an event is cancelled it poses a different scenario but that's what's happening now and to my knowledge the NBA and MLB has yet to issue any refunds.  I'm sure they will just give vouchers to figure games, similar to what airlines have been doing. Strange times that's for sure and MDs will struggle to make the best of it. I know locally we just started hosting matches again but they are called at 50 people, hard to make money with less than half the normal attendance.

Interesting.  I did some QA work for Tickets.com.  As a ticket holder, if I choose not to attend, I can re-sell my ticket via a ticket company (not a scapper).  In general, that is not allowed within our shooting environment.  

 

I agree it would be interesting to see how they deal with it.  But on the realistic side, most professional sports are billion dollar businesses.  Hmmm.  Could they afford to eat a year's cost.  Probably.  Can a club? ???

 

[pjb45]

3 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Have you been admitted to the bar yet?

 

Too funny.  Having written, drafted, and interrupted statutes, testified before committees and in legal environments, I am pretty comfortable in standing toe to toe with a member of the bar.

As a friend once remarked,  "I hire lawyers" why on earth would I want to limit myself.  

 

[MHicks]

When you register for a higher level match you have to be approved by the match director. If approved it is YOU who are approved for that spot in the match. If you cancel the spot goes to the next approved shooter on the list not whoever the original registrant wants.

 

If you buy a ticket to a ball game you are a spectator not a participant. 

[ziebart]

This is getting off topic, but the point of non refundable match slots is to ensure people show up and don't stiff the match. If a match isn't going to refund the shooter they should allow that shooter to transfer their spot. Most matches will permit this or even state it explicitly.

 

Doesn't apply to this situation as dude couldn't get someone to fill his slot from the wait list or just a buddy. I'm sure the fine folks from SMM3G would have accepted a transfer with the understanding the shooters would have to figure out payment between themselves and dude wouldn't get a different size shirt. I'm not sure how many people they were short of full, but even besides the cash you put on a match to have people shoot. It's no fun hosting an empty match

[StealthyBlagga]

On 5/21/2020 at 7:07 PM, ziebart said:

This is getting off topic, but the point of non refundable match slots is to ensure people show up and don't stiff the match. If a match isn't going to refund the shooter they should allow that shooter to transfer their spot. Most matches will permit this or even state it explicitly.

 

In theory I agree this would be an equitable approach. In practice, there are some matches that sell out quickly and have a sizable wait list - think USPSA Nationals or IPSC World Shoot. In such cases, a transferable slot becomes something of rarity and value, and therefore subject to for-profit speculation.

[ziebart]

It may, but with limited match slots there has to be some way to ration them. lottery, first come first serve, or price all are the most common way to deal with the problems of scarcity. There can only be 1 USPSA nationals a year so it's not like another match really could substitute it. Most 3 gun matches have become IMHO regional at best and people chose which one they like best and can afford to attend.

 

 

[StealthyBlagga]

52 minutes ago, ziebart said:

It may, but with limited match slots there has to be some way to ration them. lottery, first come first serve, or price all are the most common way to deal with the problems of scarcity. There can only be 1 USPSA nationals a year so it's not like another match really could substitute it. Most 3 gun matches have become IMHO regional at best and people chose which one they like best and can afford to attend.

 

 

 

In our case, we use a lottery system. Unfortunately, this does not stop people from trying to sell their slot.

[IVC]

On 5/14/2020 at 11:38 AM, StealthyBlagga said:

However, the competitor (from CA) who submitted the chargeback felt that he deserved a full refund as he "did not feel comfortable coming to the match" - as such, he jumped ahead of other folks and drained the refund pot, leaving less for everyone else. In my mind, this meets the threshold for disreputable behavior.

Probably not - he didn't bring the disrepute to the sport, which is required for 6.4.4.b.

 

What you have on hands is someone who owes you money. You could go to court and recover the fees regardless of how the bank handled it. The contract you have and which includes the refund policy is independent of any payment network. It's a legal contract that applies equally to someone who paid cash...

 

While you're not likely to go to court over such a small amount, the real-life remedy is not to allow this person to compete at your match until he pays you what he owes you. You can throw in the extra fees and interest, just to make a point. If you have buddies who are MD-s, you can share the info and everyone can require this person to pay in cash. Similar to how deadbeats have to pay when buying used cars. Short of that, you would have to make a case to NROI that this is stealing from you, which it is. Probably categorize it under "disrupting the match" rather than "bring disrepute to the sport." Stiffing you for entry fee certainly affects your ability to set up matches in the future. 

[StealthyBlagga]

9 hours ago, IVC said:

Probably not - he didn't bring the disrepute to the sport, which is required for 6.4.4.b.

 

What you have on hands is someone who owes you money. You could go to court and recover the fees regardless of how the bank handled it. The contract you have and which includes the refund policy is independent of any payment network. It's a legal contract that applies equally to someone who paid cash...

 

While you're not likely to go to court over such a small amount, the real-life remedy is not to allow this person to compete at your match until he pays you what he owes you. You can throw in the extra fees and interest, just to make a point. If you have buddies who are MD-s, you can share the info and everyone can require this person to pay in cash. Similar to how deadbeats have to pay when buying used cars. Short of that, you would have to make a case to NROI that this is stealing from you, which it is. Probably categorize it under "disrupting the match" rather than "bring disrepute to the sport." Stiffing you for entry fee certainly affects your ability to set up matches in the future. 

 

Indeed, such conduct disrupts the match by potentially driving it out of business. In any case, rule 6.4.5 just says the MD has to send a report to USPSA within 7 days... I can't find anything in the rules about a review or appeals process pertaining to 6.4.4, much less that DNROI has any standing to reverse the MDs decision. The only option would be rescinding the club's USPSA affiliation, which I guess would be a President/BoD decision.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by StealthyBlagga

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Indeed, such conduct disrupts the match by potentially driving it out of business. In any case, rule 6.4.5 just says the MD has to send a report to USPSA within 7 days... I can't find anything in the rules about a review or appeals process pertaining to 6.4.4, much less that DNROI has any standing to reverse the MDs decision. The only option would be rescinding the club's USPSA affiliation, which I guess would be a President/BoD decision.

 

 

And if they did that to defend a thief it would be catastrophic for USPSA.

[Styro]

Well it's definitely not illegal to do that. But from a shooting event stand-point, it would be a fast way to make a match director an unhappy camper!  

 

I will also say that some match directors personally profit monetarily from shooters showing up. They pocket some moneys from those match fees. Some clubs don't even have a bank account. It's all cash. In fact,  some don't even declare that money to the IRS as income, nor do they have a legal Non-Profit ORG status set up with the IRS. Sometimes not all of  that money goes to the range/property owner or for 100% of actual expenses, as you might think it does, and sometimes event directors get pissy about that because they lose their pocket money.    Just sayin'.........

[StealthyBlagga]

3 hours ago, Styro said:

Well it's definitely not illegal to do that. But from a shooting event stand-point, it would be a fast way to make a match director an unhappy camper!  

 

I will also say that some match directors personally profit monetarily from shooters showing up. They pocket some moneys from those match fees. Some clubs don't even have a bank account. It's all cash. In fact,  some don't even declare that money to the IRS as income, nor do they have a legal Non-Profit ORG status set up with the IRS. Sometimes not all of  that money goes to the range/property owner or for 100% of actual expenses, as you might think it does, and sometimes event directors get pissy about that because they lose their pocket money.    Just sayin'.........

 

LOL - I wish