3-Gun Recession?

[TonytheTiger]

Now I'm kinda curious what percentage of USPSA guys that say the shotgun is too impractical or specialized are open shooters. Just saying...

 

[toothandnail]

9 hours ago, farinx said:

1) There is some variation in the rule sets but they really aren't all that different

 

2) I felt the same way about the shotgun until I tried it - now I love it

 

3)  I've never had a 12-14 hour day shooting 3 gun or anything even close to that. I think those are incredibly rare.  I get way more frustrated with all the time wasted with re-shoots, arguing and whining at USPSA matches than I ever do at 3 gun.

 

4) Maybe I'm lucky but I can get away with very little maintenance on all of my guns.  All I do is add lube occasionally and clean the mags when they're dirty (pistol mags more so than rifle mags)

Exactly, Sure is  A LOT of  - well I heard - 

it takes 14 hours to shoot a 5 stage match, or,

it's just a SG reloading match, or,

a $4000 3 gun shotgun is useless for anything else, or

EVERY match has different rules, or,

dumb targets, too many targets, too small of targets, Or

my favorite

too much MAINTENANCE to keep 3 guns running through a match. LOL , or

PRS = less standing around. 

Very few  real experiences, mostly - hearsay/wanna be, excuses of those who have never shot a match

Edited November 6, 2019 by toothandnail

[HCH]

I do think the rule set variations are a pain in the rear. Tac and Open are pretty straight forward everywhere, but if a shooter wants to shoot Limited or Heavy, things start getting weird and in the case of the latter, one might need to own six competition guns to compete at different matches. Some require irons on the rifle, some allow optics. Some require a 45 and 10 round mags, some allow a 9mm. Some require pumps, some allow autoloaders. 

 

Then there are clubs that have “production” or something along those lines that don’t exist other places. And then there is “stealth” with tac ops gear and CO pistols. 

 

Im not saying a unified set of rules would fix all the problems, but it sure would make life easier. 

[RJH]

9 hours ago, toothandnail said:

Exactly, Sure is  A LOT of  - well I heard - 

it takes 14 hours to shoot a 5 stage match, or, 

NOT 14, BUT I HAVE SPENT 7+ HOURS TO SHOOT 5 STAGES MORE THAN ONCE, AND THAT IS ONLY MATCH TIME, NOT DRIVING ETC

 

it's just a SG reloading match, or,

IN TAC OPS, LIMITED, ETC, IT PRETTY MUCH IS WHEN IT COMES TO SG

 

9 hours ago, toothandnail said:

a $4000 3 gun shotgun is useless for anything else, or

THIS ONE IS NOT TRUE, I USE THE SAME PUMP I HAVE SHOT FOREVER, AND DO WELL ENOUGH WITH IT.

 

EVERY match has different rules, or,

NOT EVERY MATCH, BUT MANY. AND YOU KNOW THAT IS TRUE

 

dumb targets, too many targets, too small of targets,

DEFINITELY AN ISSUE THAT LEADS TO THE LONG DAYS AND THE NUMBER OF TIME OUTS, THAT LEADS TO PEOPLE NOT COMING BACK

 

Or

my favorite

too much MAINTENANCE to keep 3 guns running through a match. LOL , or

THIS IS A NON ISSUE

 

PRS = less standing around. 

I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH PRS MATCHES

 

Very few  real experiences, mostly - hearsay/wanna be, excuses of those who have never shot a match

I HAVE SHOT AND SET QUITE A FEW MATCHES SO NOT HEARSAY, JUST PERSONAL EXPERIENCE

 

I wasn't yelling just using caps lock to differentiate . I agree with some of your points but think you are off on others.  The OP was looking for some ways to get 3 gun rolling again, saying there is everything is gtg is probably not realistic.  So i was just pointing out some different opinions, based on my experience, not conjecture  

 

[HRider]

58 minutes ago, HCH said:

I do think the rule set variations are a pain in the rear. Tac and Open are pretty straight forward everywhere, but if a shooter wants to shoot Limited or Heavy, things start getting weird and in the case of the latter, one might need to own six competition guns to compete at different matches. Some require irons on the rifle, some allow optics. Some require a 45 and 10 round mags, some allow a 9mm. Some require pumps, some allow autoloaders. 

 

Then there are clubs that have “production” or something along those lines that don’t exist other places. And then there is “stealth” with tac ops gear and CO pistols. 

 

Im not saying a unified set of rules would fix all the problems, but it sure would make life easier. 

The unified set of rules (UML) is the set that has so many variations of "heavy". You sure have to be sure which variation of heavy the match that you plan to attend is using or you will be at a disadvantage.

Hurley

[HCH]

10 minutes ago, HRider said:

The unified set of rules (UML) is the set that has so many variations of "heavy". You sure have to be sure which variation of heavy the match that you plan to attend is using or you will be at a disadvantage.

Hurley

 

I have never shot anything with UML rules. Do most matches recognize all the divisions or do they pick and choose?

[perttime]

Are there USPSA matches that are Rifle-only, or Shotgun-only?

[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, perttime said:

Are there USPSA matches that are Rifle-only, or Shotgun-only?

 

We have, locally, a Carbine Match (rifle only) - haven't attended yet, not

sure if it's USPSA.

[elguapo]

3 hours ago, perttime said:

Are there USPSA matches that are Rifle-only, or Shotgun-only?

 

Not to my knowledge.

 

We do have other, very small organizations that do two gun or carbine matches.  I've been to one match run to these rules and it was a lot of fun: https://actionrifle.us/

[HRider]

5 hours ago, HCH said:

 

I have never shot anything with UML rules. Do most matches recognize all the divisions or do they pick and choose?

My first experience with UML rules is this years Ft. Benning match that will take place next week. They sent the rules out to the competitors a couple of weeks ago. Back when we signed up for the match, they announced that they would recognize Open, Tac Optics Limited and Heavy. When UML rules were forwarded, Heavy is actually Tac Heavy (9mm or larger pistol, Auto shotgun and .308 or larger rifle which can have one optic). UML has traditional heavy (45 pistol 10rd limit, 12 ga pump and .308 rifle with 20rd limit) Tac heavy and I think Heavy Optic, which is another configuration. The match is supposed to declare which one of the Heavy divisions they will recognize ahead of time.

 The UML rules for Open, Tac Optics and Limited look like what I am used to seeing from most everyone else (Blueridge differing only by requiring all shotguns other than Open be plugged to only allow 8 rds in the magazine tube).

 

Most of the local two and three gun stuff around me just recognizes Open, so you just run what you brung.

Hurley

[toothandnail]

11 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

I wasn't yelling just using caps lock to differentiate . I agree with some of your points but think you are off on others.  The OP was looking for some ways to get 3 gun rolling again, saying there is everything is gtg is probably not realistic.  So i was just pointing out some different opinions, based on my experience, not conjecture  

 

Oh, there's room for improvement, but I was just pointing out many of the objections are non-issues from guys who have never shot a match.
The "different rule set" objection is also a non-issue, I shave shot matches from MN, to VA, to TX, and everywhere in between, there has never been a match that a quick read through easily identified any MINOR changes needed, the majority are 98% the same.  There have been 2 that I opted out of due to restricting Open to 10 round mags.
I prefer the different "flavors" that outlaw allows, whereas something like USPSA ,restricts the stage design too much.

[TonytheTiger]

56 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

Oh, there's room for improvement, but I was just pointing out many of the objections are non-issues from guys who have never shot a match.

Unfortunately this thread is mostly guys that don't shoot 3 gun listing the reasons they don't shoot 3 gun. While its a useful data point that may be helpful to attract new shooters, I think the OP was wanting to hear more from the guys leaving 3 gun than the guys that were never here.

 

A good discussion nonetheless but still not as informative as I would've hoped.

[toothandnail]

11 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Unfortunately this thread is mostly guys that don't shoot 3 gun listing the reasons they don't shoot 3 gun. While its a useful data point that may be helpful to attract new shooters, I think the OP was wanting to hear more from the guys leaving 3 gun than the guys that were never here.

 

A good discussion nonetheless but still not as informative as I would've hoped.

Yup, kinda what I noticed as well.
What I've noticed - seems many of the "new" guys want something easy that they can shoot fast = BIG targets, at close distances  (one reason why PCC has taken off) 
improving pistol skills is too hard
long range rifle is too hard (many don't even know where their rifle is zeroed at, and don't really care)

shotgun loading is too hard.

I enjoy stages that kick my butt, prompts me to work on that aspect.
Way back in the day, you asked the RO for TIME? a couple of times during the stage, to determine if you should just engage, or try and neutralize, stages like that today are considered TOO HARD! 

[gerritm]

9 hours ago, toothandnail said:

Yup, kinda what I noticed as well.
What I've noticed - seems many of the "new" guys want something easy that they can shoot fast = BIG targets, at close distances  (one reason why PCC has taken off) 
improving pistol skills is too hard
long range rifle is too hard (many don't even know where their rifle is zeroed at, and don't really care)

shotgun loading is too hard.

I enjoy stages that kick my butt, prompts me to work on that aspect.
Way back in the day, you asked the RO for TIME? a couple of times during the stage, to determine if you should just engage, or try and neutralize, stages like that today are considered TOO HARD! 

Agree. 8 years ago when my son & I started  there was only a couple of 3-gun matches around. The best was all natural terrain with mostly long range out to 500 yards mixed in with some shotgun/pistol/jungle runs ran by an old time Air Force guy that had short par times and the rules were you had to hit each target before moving on to next one. He was in his 60's & figured if he could do it under par time we could. We timed out a lot, it kicked our butts, but if we wanted to finish we learned how to move & shoot. It was fun & a challenge. That is why we shoot.

 

gerritm

[Frankly]

You're generalizing or missing points in your reading. I can't speak for others but I said the PCC close paper hoser targets are BS as are the too easy shotgun/pistol targets, the gimmicky targets and the high round counts with a lot of worthless shots.

 

IMHO do less but more satisfying targets, cut the round counts and par times, and use targets that don't need to be reset manually to speed the entire match up so we aren't standing around all day. If my round count is dropped in half all the better, I just spent 12 hours for 5x3 = 15m of shooting, that means 98% of my time wasn't shooting. 

 

With less targets you could increase the challenges or even recycle stages by simply moving the start box to the opposite side or further back, increase distances, make people reverse directions, kick a hay bail over to make the stationary positions different. 

 

What I'm saying is simplify the matches for the organizers not the shooters! 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Frankly

[NoKimberDave]

I love 3gun and since I got into shooting that was my goal. I have many many friends who shoot with me, that I have personally got into competitive shooting. Pistols and 2gun.

I have been unable to get a single one into 3gun, despite constantly hammering them with it.

They can take their Glock, with factory mags, and a AR with two 40pmags and go shoot 2gun. They sling their rifle. Holster their pistol. And easily carry it between stages.

 

It's the gun that shall not be mentioned. Like it or not it's expensive AF for gun that can only be used in a 3gun match. None of these guys have these guns laying around, and they have no other use for it. Plus, you now have to add a cart to carry it and the huge boxes of ammo (and bigger case, etc.). It's a lot of stuff. It took me a few years to collect it all. I personally love the shotgun. But convincing newbs is a battle. It's reality. I've had a couple come watch and they see all the jerseys and anodized super guns and dudes dropping quads with the quickness and it's just super intimidating I guess, and it just looks/feels expensive. Because it is! The size of the SG and ammo and loaders just makes it totally exponential.

I see a jungle run and think "awesome". They see it and think "I have to load 28 rounds, including 4 slugs at end".

 

If it were as simple as "this stage has 6-8 clays/knockovers" and you can hit them all and dump gun, that would be less intimidating. 

 

And we have USPSA rifle matches around here that are very satisfying for long guns, as well as a plethora of other choices. So it's a tough sell.

With the VR-80 being affordable, I am now working this angle: just do mag changes and forget about quad loading. As a lot of guys have slide ride red dot pistols. Unlimited is actually attainable with fairly affordable gear. I don't know what the answer is. Wish I did because personally I love the game! 

[1chota]

Of course y'all realize that it isn't true He-Man unless the RO yells "fix bayonet"!

[Hi-Power Jack]

54 minutes ago, 1chota said:

  it isn't true He-Man unless the RO yells "fix bayonet"!

 

 

And, set grenades   …..     

[Dan Sierpina]

3 hours ago, 1chota said:

Of course y'all realize that it isn't true He-Man unless the RO yells "fix bayonet"!

Are we going use Garands at HeMan???

 

[HRider]

1 hour ago, Dan Sierpina said:

Are we going use Garands at HeMan???

 

That would be fun. There used to be a rifle match in Birmingham that would allow Garands to just put one on paper to neutralize. With the CMP close by, they usually had a few guys shooting Garands. Man, will they rock an MGM flasher!

Hurley

[Dan Sierpina]

2 minutes ago, HRider said:

That would be fun. There used to be a rifle match in Birmingham that would allow Garands to just put one on paper to neutralize. With the CMP close by, they usually had a few guys shooting Garands. Man, will they rock an MGM flasher!

Hurley

A couple years ago, a mutual friend of 1Chota and I, tossed the idea of the Garand at me for us to shoot HeMan. A Model 97 or Model 12 in trench gun configuration  for the shotgun part would be one fun time. We'd both wind up shooting Benellis, rather than go nuts and broke on either of the Winchesters.

 

[HRider]

I have toyed with the idea on making an extended tube for a '97 and using one for fun in 3 gun. They are much easier to load than a Model 12. I would have to buy another one though, my '97 has a 32" full choke barrel, and I wouldn't dare cut it off. It still patterns really good, I use it for turkey shoots now. 

Hurley

[mike4045]

I would be up for more shotgun only matches.

 

[TonytheTiger]

22 hours ago, mike4045 said:

I would be up for more shotgun only matches.

 

I'd like to shoot one shotgun match a year. Unfortunately the scheduling has never worked out for me to attend one.

[Moloch38]

On 11/9/2019 at 8:15 PM, HRider said:

That would be fun. There used to be a rifle match in Birmingham that would allow Garands to just put one on paper to neutralize. With the CMP close by, they usually had a few guys shooting Garands. Man, will they rock an MGM flasher!

Hurley

I know someone at that match that shoots a Thompson for giggles and has won.