Visual ready and start signals

[broadside72]

52 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

USPSA Rule 1.1.2 clearly defines the purpose of the challenges to be presented in matches. Why is that always a forgotten requirement when people dream up these foot race stages?

 

Aren't all stages without a fixed single shooting box a foot race though? 

[CHA-LEE]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

 

Aren't all stages without a fixed single shooting box a foot race though? 

 

Not when the "normal" movement distance between shooting positions isn't the primary performance differentiator between varied physical fitness level shooters. USPSA is a gun game that is focused on testing PRACTICAL SHOOTING skills. Not an outright running game of testing who can sprint 30+ yards without doing anything associated with shooting skills.

[Mcfoto]

Here's my take on it from a guy who's "challenged" in several way:

 

1. Senior (not quite Super yet)

2. Two bad knees and residual effects from a couple of tussles with the Big C (chemo and rad).

3. By nature a pokie individual. My kids even remember childhood walks, waiting for dad to catch up

 

That being said, one of the things I like about USPSA is that it challenges me in ways I might not challenge myself. Honestly, when I go to the range on my own, I set up three targets and do variations of El' Presidente. Movement might be 10 feet across. Having just last month shot Area 1, I ran into some stages that could be challenging for those who are less than mobile. At one point, I overheard another "senior" competitor negotiating with the RM for the number of procedurals for skipping a prone port. My take was to go for it. However, if the stage planner includes another option (usually with a time-sucking consequence), I might take that. But otherwise, with the OP's scenario, the RO might fall asleep with boredom before I might make the hike down his start. I often joke with my squad-mates that we don't need a timer for my runs, a calendar will do.

[ATLDave]

Another way to look at it:  Take a fleet-footed B class shooter on a stage, and put a nationally-competitive but clearly out of shape shooter up against him/her on the same stage.  If the B class shooter becomes a real threat based on the non-shooting aspects of the stage, then you've built a stage for a different sport than this one.   

[regor]

If your bays are wide enough, why not just put the starting/shooting box on one side and the barrel on the opposite side. Shooter has to exit the starting box, run to the barrel, then run back to the box to engage any targets. Make them technical targets to even the playing field. We had a local stage that had a start position, run ~15 yards to a barrel, then ~20 yards to start box, making about 10 yards of forward gain, then engage a close open paper and a 35 yard plate rack, followed by another ~30 yard run to another box with another open target and a ~15 yard plate rack. There was a lot of moaning about it, but the people who were moaning were primarily the people who lacked the fundamentals to make the long shots, not the folks who lacked athleticism. The folks who had both were greatly reward, as they should be.

 

I understand there are some shooters who physically can not perform such physical feats, but the vast majority of shooters have the capacity to be athletic, whether they choose to or not is up to them, and there scores will be affected accordingly. If you don't want to have to run, go shoot Steel Challenge. 

 

 

 

[ATLDave]

Nobody is saying people shouldn't have to run to post competitive times in USPSA.  They already do.

 

People are saying that having a disproportionate share of long movement with no shooting is boring to shoot, boring to score, and doesn't really fit what our game is about.

 

Make that long run pass a few targets (doesn't have to be a lot) that can be shot on the move, and it's interesting again.  And relevant to our sport.  

Edited July 8, 2019 by ATLDave

[elguapo]

3 hours ago, robchavous said:

I'm all for having plenty of movement/physical challenges in a stage. We've put on a more IPSC style match as our last match of the year the last 2 years. More movement between positions, low ports, prone, etc.

 

I'm all for that. 

 

Pointless running?  Not so much.

[Racinready300ex]

I don't recall the numbers exactly but a couple years ago A8 had a stage with some plates that could be seen from anywhere with in the shooting area. This meant you could engage them from as far away as about 70 yards. If you engaged them from the location of the last paper target they were about 50 yards. Or you could run up a additional 40 yards and shoot them from 10.

 

I think most guys ran up. The fastest times for staying back and running up were basically the same. And the RO's made the run with every shooter who ran up.

 

I thought this was a good stage, there was a lot of debate as to what was going to be better.

[RaylanGivens]

Clip an AMG timer to the shooter and use a remote Bluetooth start from PractiScore.

 

[MikeBurgess]

41 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Another way to look at it:  Take a fleet-footed B class shooter on a stage, and put a nationally-competitive but clearly out of shape shooter up against him/her on the same stage.  If the B class shooter becomes a real threat based on the non-shooting aspects of the stage, then you've built a stage for a different sport than this one.   

I disagree with this statement.

 

USPSA tests many aspects of shooting and movement and while they should be tested in balance that balance does not need to be on every stage. a whole match of track meet stages would suck, but not making people run at all because it is bad for the old or slow is not good for the sport either. 

 

My experience designing stages has been, even when I design in a opt out option for the more physical challenges most of those who's scores would benefit from using the opt out tend not to because they know they are not going to win the match to begin with and seem to enjoy doing the same challenges as everyone else. 

 

 

[ATLDave]

Yeah, we definitely do disagree.  What if we make the gun accessible at the end of a 2 mile twisting race track and the start position is sitting in a go-cart?  The sport definitely includes prop manipulation as a test that sometimes is part of the game.  I'm not saying we have an entire match of go-cart racing, but one stage should be fine, right?

 

No, that's a different sport.  

 

And just to be clear, I am very much OK with more physical stages.  I like being out of breath at the end of a stage from maximum physical effort... combined with shooting.  But I can stay home and run up and down the street not shooting if I want to do that.  

Edited July 8, 2019 by ATLDave

[johnbu]

4 hours ago, robchavous said:

ust adding pointless running to the beginning of a stage doesn't accomplish anything

 

 

Great input guys. 

 

While, finding out an idea is "straight up stupid" (and i do admit that) is no fun, I'd rather look stupid for an idea, than for a bad stage. So thanks!

 

Will put that into the bin where it belongs.

[NickBlasta]

To answer the original question, it is not allowable because 8.3 lists the only approved range commands. A visual start signal, however, is allowed (3.2.1).

 

You can do a stage like that if you design it correctly to where it doesn't matter if the shooter slightly outpaces the RO. If they shooter has to run back, say to the right to grab his gun and engages targets on the right, the RO is pretty safe on the left since there's no targets there, and the unloaded start gives him time to catch up. You can't get out of the RO having to move though, unless you have a loudspeaker.

 

As for the physical aspect, eh. I've found you don't have to give people long to run to get their heart rate up (they like to sprint in the interest of time) if that's your goal. It's pretty funny to see pages of people trying their damnedest to get out of some exercise though.

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

Yeah, we definitely do disagree.  What if we make the gun accessible at the end of a 2 mile twisting race track and the start position is sitting in a go-cart?  The sport definitely includes prop manipulation as a test that sometimes is part of the game.  I'm not saying we have an entire match of go-cart racing, but one stage should be fine, right?

 

No, that's a different sport.  

 

And just to be clear, I am very much OK with more physical stages.  I like being out of breath at the end of a stage from maximum physical effort... combined with shooting.  But I can stay home and run up and down the street not shooting if I want to do that.  

I think I made my point poorly I was referring to your assertion that a B class speed demon being able to out run an out of shape national level shooter and there by compete with them on a stage makes the stage bad.

Should we also say that if a super accurate B class guy with 2 bad knees and a bad limp can compete with a super fast national level guy on a accuracy intensive stand and shoot it is by definition a bad stage? 

I think testing skills to failure be they physical or marksmanship whatever are fine as long as the match is in balance. 

 

 

[HCH]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I don't recall the numbers exactly but a couple years ago A8 had a stage with some plates that could be seen from anywhere with in the shooting area. This meant you could engage them from as far away as about 70 yards. If you engaged them from the location of the last paper target they were about 50 yards. Or you could run up a additional 40 yards and shoot them from 10.

 

I think most guys ran up. The fastest times for staying back and running up were basically the same. And the RO's made the run with every shooter who ran up.

 

I thought this was a good stage, there was a lot of debate as to what was going to be better.

 

THIS sounds like an awesome stage. It sounds very freestyle. It sounds like the competitor was allowed to decide on the best way to go about a COF. It sounds like there were plenty of options which always makes a stage better. 

[HCH]

38 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

To answer the original question, it is not allowable because 8.3 lists the only approved range commands. A visual start signal, however, is allowed (3.2.1).

 

You can do a stage like that if you design it correctly to where it doesn't matter if the shooter slightly outpaces the RO. If they shooter has to run back, say to the right to grab his gun and engages targets on the right, the RO is pretty safe on the left since there's no targets there, and the unloaded start gives him time to catch up. You can't get out of the RO having to move though, unless you have a loudspeaker.

 

As for the physical aspect, eh. I've found you don't have to give people long to run to get their heart rate up (they like to sprint in the interest of time) if that's your goal. It's pretty funny to see pages of people trying their damnedest to get out of some exercise though.

 

At Hard as Hell multigun TX edition last year they addressed the start issue on a multiple-bay stage (off topic of USPSA, I know). No guns were allowed to leave a bay, so as the shooter went from one bay to the next to the next, RO’s didn’t have to chase the shooter. When everything was staged, the “beep” came through a walkie talkie that the RO in the last bay had. I know this could cause the time to not be recorded in the event of a DNF, but since the shooter had two more guns to shoot after the start signal, there was always the option to keep going. 

 

Ideal? Probably not. Did it keep from killing RO’s from exhaustion? You betcha. 

[Barcode1337]

47 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

To answer the original question, it is not allowable because 8.3 lists the only approved range commands. A visual start signal, however, is allowed (3.2.1).

 

 

Visual start signals are what I was curious about while reading this. How can visual start signals be done to still ensure competitive equity? Are there "visual" shot timers or something?

[HCH]

28 minutes ago, Barcode1337 said:

 

Visual start signals are what I was curious about while reading this. How can visual start signals be done to still ensure competitive equity? Are there "visual" shot timers or something?

 

Fixed time

[driver8M3]

41 minutes ago, Barcode1337 said:

 

Visual start signals are what I was curious about while reading this. How can visual start signals be done to still ensure competitive equity? Are there "visual" shot timers or something?

something like this:

 

 

[ATLDave]

13 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

 Should we also say that if a super accurate B class guy with 2 bad knees and a bad limp can compete with a super fast national level guy on a accuracy intensive stand and shoot it is by definition a bad stage?   

 

I don't such a stage is likely to even be possible.  The nationally competitive guys are all going to be better than a B class shooter on stand-and-shoot stuff.  If the B class shooter was that awesome on standards, he/she would have an M or GM classification.

[Gary Stevens]

There are ways to use visual starts that are perfectly fine. One example I participated in was a flashing light that signified an emergency in the nuke plant. Shooters were simulating being on break, leaning against a fence when the light went off. 

 

The OP's original post is, IMHO, an example of just because you can do something, doesn't always mean you should.

[rowdyb]

20 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I don't recall the numbers exactly but a couple years ago A8 had a stage with some plates that could be seen from anywhere with in the shooting area. This meant you could engage them from as far away as about 70 yards. If you engaged them from the location of the last paper target they were about 50 yards. Or you could run up a additional 40 yards and shoot them from 10.

 

I think most guys ran up. The fastest times for staying back and running up were basically the same. And the RO's made the run with every shooter who ran up.

 

I thought this was a good stage, there was a lot of debate as to what was going to be better.

I won that stage for Production iirc

[rowdyb]

Remember the 50 yard standards at PASA at nationals? Visual start.

[elguapo]

31 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

There are ways to use visual starts that are perfectly fine. One example I participated in was a flashing light that signified an emergency in the nuke plant.

 

Need a SCRAM button to activate props

Edited July 9, 2019 by elguapo

[pskys2]

On 7/8/2019 at 9:55 AM, motosapiens said:

to make it easy, have the shooter start next to the RO, get a standard audible signal, and have to run 30 yards and then back to the gun. That's just as good an idea as the original (i.e. not at all), and logistically easier.

My thought and I take it you want the gun on a barrel so it doesn't fall out of the holster, which means the only reason for the run is the run and not as a holster retention check (I know it can up the stress by making you exert yourself) but that makes it a track meet not a shooting challenge.  Would it be fair, to the shooter or the RO, to require 10 squat thrusts, push ups, pull ups or some other physical challenge to up the heart rate? 

 

Testing movement while shooting is great, I don't like using movement as a holster check and we need to also recognize many competitors can't do certain physical challenges.  In that case one can take a penalty and shoot differently (not attempt the challenge) so how would that affect the run?  10 point penalty to NOT run 30 yards which will take most average people more than 5 seconds, easily 10?  A long field course of 32 rounds with 10 seconds running and say 25 seconds to shoot= 150 pts./35 seconds=4.285 hf or 140 pts/25 seconds=5.6 hf?  150-30 =120/25 seconds = 4.8hf (most you can penalize and still better than running).  

Ready for the argument that 1) you look able to run so run? 2) can't apply a 20% penalty as there was no shooting involved?  3) the bad feelings of refusing someone? 4) the issue if someone tries and is injured 5) Are you prepared if someone attempts it and collapses?  

 

10.2.10.2 If the request is approved by the Range Master, a minimum of one procedural penalty, up to a maximum penalty of 20% of the competitor’s points “as shot” (rounded up to the nearest whole number), will be deducted from the competitor’s score. For example, if 100 points are available in the course of fire and the competitor actually scores 90 points, the special penalty is a deduction of 18 points. The Range Master may waive any or all procedural penalties in respect of a competitor who has a significant physical disability prior to the competitor making his attempt at the course of fire.