Visual ready and start signals

[johnbu]

Ok, I'm designing a stage where the RO stands next to a barrel with the competitor's unloaded gun. The competitor is 25-30 yards away in a start box with a flag.

 

The idea is, since it's too far for audible signals, the RO will raise an arm to "ask" if the competitor is ready. The competitor will raise the flag to say "yes, I'm ready", the RO will then wait and drop the arm and start the timer.  The competitor will run to the barrel, load the gun and commence shooting.

 

Question.... is that allowable?  And acceptable in the rules?  3.2.1 seems to say yes, but ... more opinions are better. Especially on how to equitably do it.

The benefit is the Ro isn't run ragged (lol) and the squad can be close to allow faster pasting. 

 

Thanks

[Lee Cabana]

I'd cite rule 1.1.2

 

1.1.2

Quality – The value of a USPSA match is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

 

[MikeBurgess]

I see bit of a issue with the speed the RO moves the flag and starts the timer not being the same for everyone. with our time recorded to the hundredth of a second it seems like there is way to much variability in that.

 

If you want to induce a bunch of running prior to shooting to get the shooters hear rate up you could put their ammo on a barrel/table 10 yards up range then have their gun on a barrel/table 10 yards down range with targets immediately available at the gun location. then have the RO start them normally. the shooters will then run back for their ammo then forward to their gun (because this order is 10 yards shorter than getting the gun first they are super unlikely to go that way) the RO can then walk slowly down range while the shooter runs up and back everyone gets the same start and the RO doesn't need to sprint.

 

 

Another option is to just make the shooting that needs to be done at the gun pickup location technical enough that it gives the RO time to catch up, if your concerned about watching the shooter just have the assistant RO start in that location and watch the shooter till the timer RO catches up, they just need to get to the shooter before they fire their last shot.

[RJH]

I am open to a lot of crazy ideas at uspsa matches,  but straight up foot races, goes a little far. I am putting this in the bad idea catagory

Edited July 8, 2019 by RJH

[ATLDave]

About the stage design:

 

Yeah, I heard that Stoeger/PSAD episode, too.  I don't think this is what Tyler was talking about.

 

If you want to integrate some more dynamic movement into the shooting, that could be interesting.  Things like Cooper tunnels or walls, or maybe a higher percentage of movement time relative to number of targets... that could be interesting.

 

A 30 yard dash with no gun in hand and no shooting to be done... not interesting.  If 2 shooters shoot exactly the same time and points starting from the point where they reach the gun, but one of them was 2 seconds faster on the 30 yard dash... what is interesting about that?  

[robchavous]

I'd cite rule 1.1.2
 

1.1.2

Quality – The value of a USPSA match is determined by the quality of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

 

This.

It in no way enhances a stage. All it does is artificially drive down the hit factor and add unnecessary time to the match as a whole.

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[gerritm]

13 minutes ago, robchavous said:

This.

It in no way enhances a stage. All it does is artificially drive down the hit factor and add unnecessary time to the match as a whole.

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This.

 

Shot an outlaw match Sunday that had a similar start. 25 yard run to retrieve gun & start the stage. Not equitable to all. Some of the older (including me) shooters had a hard time completing the run. Chances of tripping/injury are high. Better ways to build up heart rate. Probably will not go back to this match, several of the shooters said the same. 

 

gerritm

[motosapiens]

to make it easy, have the shooter start next to the RO, get a standard audible signal, and have to run 30 yards and then back to the gun. That's just as good an idea as the original (i.e. not at all), and logistically easier.

[jcc7x7]

Track meet or shooting event?

[ATLDave]

22 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

to make it easy, have the shooter start next to the RO, get a standard audible signal, and have to run 30 yards and then back to the gun. That's just as good an idea as the original (i.e. not at all), and logistically easier.

 

Hey, if 30 yards of movement with no shooting integrated into it is good, 60 yards must be twice as good!

[robchavous]

 
Hey, if 30 yards of movement with no shooting integrated into it is good, 60 yards must be twice as good!

Let's just require everyone to run a 5k before we start!

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[ATLDave]

What if they threw a crossfit, and everyone brought a gun?  

[elguapo]

1 hour ago, gerritm said:

This.

 

Shot an outlaw match Sunday that had a similar start. 25 yard run to retrieve gun & start the stage. Not equitable to all. Some of the older (including me) shooters had a hard time completing the run. Chances of tripping/injury are high. Better ways to build up heart rate. Probably will not go back to this match, several of the shooters said the same. 

 

gerritm

 

I wouldn't go back to something like that (or the OP's idea) ever.

[MemphisMechanic]

I’m all for this.

 

I run faster than the old guys.

[rowdyb]

Everyone wants a division to fit their chosen gun and mods. So why not wanting stages that favor your physical abilities. 

[robchavous]

I'm all for having plenty of movement/physical challenges in a stage. We've put on a more IPSC style match as our last match of the year the last 2 years. More movement between positions, low ports, prone, etc. We advertised it ahead of time to get ahead of the older crowds complaining.

Just adding pointless running to the beginning of a stage doesn't accomplish anything.

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[ATLDave]

Just now, robchavous said:

I'm all for having plenty of movement/physical challenges in a stage. We've put on a more IPSC style match as our last match of the year the last 2 years. More movement between positions, low ports, prone, etc. ...Just adding pointless running to the beginning of a stage doesn't accomplish anything.

 

100% correct, as usual.  Physicality integrated into the shooting - interesting, and relevant to the sport.

 

Effectively bifurcating the stage into a NFL combine event followed by a USPSA stage... dumb, and not interesting.  

[MikeBurgess]

I think the occasional "track meet" stage is just fine, this is not bullseye and yes some competitors are going to be at a disadvantage in the foot race portion as they should be, if it bothers you that foot speed and agility are part of our sport there are other games that may interest you. 

 

I used the term Occasional because I think Matches should strike a balance and include many types of stages that test many skills. The stage start as described above does not sound great to me but without further knowledge of the skill tests that the actual shooting part may entail I am hesitant to say its a bad idea.

 

[MikeBurgess]

how about this for a stage 

start as above with a 25yard run of some sort then pick up and load gun and engage 1 mini popper at 40 yards. 

 

As part of a match it would account for 5 match points (otherwise known as nothing) it would give the speedy young guys a moment in the sun showing off their lightning speed footwork, likely followed by getting embarrassed when a older Gent trots up a little slower then hits the popper on the first shot.

 

[egd5]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

how about this for a stage 

start as above with a 25yard run of some sort then pick up and load gun and engage 1 mini popper at 40 yards. 

 

As part of a match it would account for 5 match points (otherwise known as nothing) it would give the speedy young guys a moment in the sun showing off their lightning speed footwork, likely followed by getting embarrassed when a older Gent trots up a little slower then hits the popper on the first shot.

 

But make it Virginia count!!

[HoMiE]

3 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Track meet or shooting event?

This^^^^^^^

[d_striker]

It's stuff like this that has made me stay away from the Area 3 championship.  Looks like they finally noticed attendance dropping and they toned it down a bit.  This will be the first year going back to that match after three years staying away.

[ATLDave]

36 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

it would give the speedy young guys a moment in the sun showing off their lightning speed footwork

 

Hmmm... I think of "footwork" being something technical, like drop-stepping outside the fault lines after a hard lean to get a good departure.  Not "run in a straight line for 30 yards with no gun in hands and nothing technical to do."  

 

And guys who are blessed with raw overall footspeed generally get to flash it in a good percentage of field courses.  It's already a nice ability to bring to the table, and it already gets rewarded.  No reason to build a separate stage for it.  

[gerritm]

Kind of a waste of 25-30 yards of good real estate for targets & shooting. 

 

gerritm

[CHA-LEE]

Ok wait a minute.... The OP wants to create a 25-30 yard foot race skill biased stage but allow the RO's to be lazy and not have to make the same run? Think about that for a minute and you should come up with a common sense answer to it being a viable stage or not.

 

USPSA Rule 1.1.2 clearly defines the purpose of the challenges to be presented in matches. Why is that always a forgotten requirement when people dream up these foot race stages?

 

As an MD myself, even if these types of stages were legal I still wouldn't use them. It sounds challenging and fun until someone falls, injures themselves, or has a heart attack at the range trying to do some over the top physical activity. Look at the age and physical fitness level for the bulk of the shooters attending matches and cater the shooting/moving challenges to that customer base.