Open Division dropping major/minor?

[obsessiveshooter]

At my last match I listened in on a conversation between two very good Open shooters, one being a well known long-time IPSC/USPSA shooter.  They were discussing the idea of Open division no longer having major/minor power factor.  The gist of it was, a properly tuned well built 9 major pistol will have about the same recoil as a 9 minor open pistol.  So controlling the power isn't really something that needs a reward.  And, the guns would run more reliably, last longer and potentially be safer.   

My contribution to the Pros would be that the change would not really cause people to lose on their investment like a similar change to Limited division would (.40 pistols becoming obsolete overnight).  People would just develop a new load and change spring rates, or not, depending on their preferences.  And, a person who does not reload could still be competitive, running off the shelf 9mm. 

The one Con I can imagine would be the loads of butthurt about it suddenly being more difficult to take HOA with their cheater dot space pistols.   

I don't shoot open, so I have no dog in the hunt.  But, I thought this hypothetical was worthy of discussion as a thought exercise at least.     

[Hi-Power Jack]

Doubt it will ever happen.     

 

But, I'd vote for it.      

[Sarge]

There is more involved than just changing load and spring. Different Comp for starters and not all off the shelf 9mm makes minor reliably.

[motosapiens]

That sounds like something I would argue for if I were an old, weak, blind pansy.

 

I recommend actually shooting open major and open minor back to back and see if you think there is no difference in recoil.

 

GM level trolling skills, btw....

Edited April 9, 2019 by motosapiens

[RJH]

I think this is a great idea.  I don't shoot open, but maybe i could finally beat some open shooters with my pcc

[HoMiE]

17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

There is more involved than just changing load and spring. Different Comp for starters and not all off the shelf 9mm makes minor reliably.

Factory 9mm should make minor in all but 3” barreled pistols. 

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Factory 9mm should make minor in all but 3” barreled pistols. 

Remington UMC only made 124 in my G34. Blazer brass and WWB were under 130 which is too close for comfort for me.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

Remington UMC only made 124 in my G34. Blazer brass and WWB were under 130 which is too close for comfort for me.

you could still use it for calibration ammo......    

[Barcode1337]

My perspective is that Open exists as a means to tinker and push the boundaries of gun/gear capabilities. The working up loads aspect seems to be a pretty big/cool part.

Not to mention, a knee jerk response would be that minor open is basically CO.

[obsessiveshooter]

That sounds like something I would argue for if I were an old, weak, blind pansy.
 
I recommend actually shooting open major and open minor back to back and see if you think there is no difference in recoil.
 
GM level trolling skills, btw....

Actually, I have shot a friend's open 9 major pistol and the speed at which the dot returned was super fast. Like, you've-got-to be-kidding-me fast. So, I can't imagine open minor being any different. And, that was the point made by the two open shooters who were talking about this.
And yeah, this topic can't help but start some s#!t, right?! It also might be productive though.

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[Kurusty]

I have shot other people's 9 major guns and they are not even close to the same feel as minor. They hit a lot harder than 9 minor and ever most 38 supers and I know of at least 5 that have cracked their slides. I will say that I don't know what loads they were using for the ones that I shot, so there might be some that don't recoil as hard, I'm not saying that I'm an expert, I just know that I wouldn't shoot 9 major. I wouldn't have any problem with 9 minor though. I doubt they are going to change the power factor though.

[Poppa Bear]

Part of the major or minor power factor equation is the feet per second of the bullet.  On close in targets there would not be much of a drop.  On targets 25 to 50 yards out there would start to be a difference.  Major FPS has a better chance of dropping a popper compared to Minor FPS.  I do not shoot Open but I would think that I would want a round that is consistent first and then consider how much power I am willing to load into a cartridge to get the best results.  I also know of shooters who shoot 2011 based Open guns where they have a lot of room for powder and people who shoot Glock based Open guns where they have to compress their loads in order to get the cartridge short enough to load into the magazine.

 

I do not think PF is going to make a big difference in a shooters overall accuracy or time when we are talking Open division.  

[shred]

Major scoring is a huge part of what makes Open what it is.  It lets Open shooters run around and shoot on the move at high speed because they can afford to drop some C's and still score well.  Otherwise it would be Carry Optics-with-comp or PCC-short.

 

Doesn't really matter what the PF is, but major scoring is the big thing.

 

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

That sounds like something I would argue for if I were an old, weak, blind pansy.

 

Exactly .     

 

That's why I support OPEN minor and dropping Major.     

[kneelingatlas]

Come on Leighton, you can do better than this; your position is based on heresay and half-baked assumptions borne of nearly perfect ignorance of the subject matter.

 

Why do so many shooter's feel compelled to change divisions they don't shoot?

[Racinready300ex]

I love it when someone says "I don't shoot division _____ but we should make a massive change to it"

 

There is a huge difference in how a open gun feels shooting major or minor. Open as it is today is very dependent on major scoring, take that away and you'll completely change the division. Gun smiths will probably like it, they can design all new comps and slide cuts and ports. Guns will probably get lighter, and more expensive similar to SC guns. Everyone will want the new hotness.

 

If we're going to do something this drastic we should also figure out how to combine it with CO and cut out a division. No need to have two hi-cap, minor scored, dot gun divisions.

 

 

[obsessiveshooter]

Come on Leighton, you can do better than this; your position is based on heresay and half-baked assumptions borne of nearly perfect ignorance of the subject matter.
 
Why do so many shooter's feel compelled to change divisions they don't shoot?

I'm not really advocating for anything. I was surprised to hear a GM and M level shooter discussing this and I thought it would be a good hypothetical for discussion here. It's kind of the point of these forums, to be able to weigh ideas based on their merits.
The argument for removing PF scoring from Limited falls apart, but those reasons don't apply as convincingly to Open division. So, this thread makes for an interesting discussion. I'll probably learn something.

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[obsessiveshooter]

I dont want to put words in anyone's mouth, so I want to be clear, the guys who were discussing this at the match were not necessarily advocating for a rule change, they were just talking about the implications.

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[Part_time_redneck]

Someone has to say it so I will. 

 

"If you like your power factor, you can keep your power factor". Yeah, right. 

 

Few thoughts. Major / minor are essentially subclasses within a division.  To delete major from open its only logical to then also delete it from Limited & single stack. Since all the classifier HHF's were generated with major scoring utilized, we can throw out all the data that has been accumulated as it's no longer applicable. So now that all divisions that once shot major ( back in the old days ), have no classifications, what do you do with the remaining divisions classifiers?

 

As far as simply changing springs & load, I don't think it's quite that simple. What about open guys with guns specifically built to run major? ( The cheater dot space pistols ). Large comps, poppel holes, steel grips, etc? Several of these guns won't even function with reduced power ammo. But I guess we can still run major loads without the scoring advantage. On not reloading and being competitive in open, kind of sounds like " I want to race Top Fuel but don't like the cost and hassle of nitromethane. Let's make everyone run pump gas." 

 

As far as a sore tushy about high overall, it would only be a matter of time before you started to see ultralight, open guns purpose built to run on 130 PF ammo. ( super duper ulticheater space dot pistols ). There goes high overall. Back to square one. Quick, change some more rules!  

 

Sorry if I sound a bit snippy, not my intent. Just in my opinion I could see this down the road creating a lot of problems. 

[RJH]

I don't shoot open, but i like the idea cause open guns are too loud when i am ROing. Minor open guns would be nice and quiet

Edited April 9, 2019 by RJH
I am a bad, bad speller :-)

[pskys2]

If it were to happen, think SC Open Guns with a minimum PF.  Who knows major was 185 at one point.

[RJH]

16 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

If it were to happen, think SC Open Guns with a minimum PF.  Who knows major was 185 at one point.

Why even set a minium pf, maybe just do away with power factor and paint steel, i.e., steel just needs marked to score

[GrumpyOne]

56 minutes ago, RJH said:

I don't shoot open, but i like the idea cause open guns are too loud when i am ROing. Minor open guns would be nice and quite

And quite what?

[HCH]

I think Open should have to use a minimum of a .40 to make Major. 

[kneelingatlas]

18 minutes ago, HCH said:

I think Open should have to use a minimum of a .40 to make Major. 

 

Why?