Why is the PCC division limited to Minor scoring?

[atomicferret]

What is the reasoning USPSA chose to not allow a PCC to make major PF scoring?  If you shot a PCC chambered in 40 or 45, I am sure it would make it easily.  

 

 

[Xanatos903]

Why is Production division limited to minor only? Because the scoring model is such that everyone would just shoot major if given the opportunity, and it's a more interesting division with minor scoring.

 

Same thing with PCC, I think. If you don't even have to worry about getting most of your shots in the A-zone anymore, what's the point of shooting a minor gun? It's not like there's a capacity advantage for minor shooters when you have 2' long magazines... Even though PCC really is a go-fast division, you still can't just blaze through a stage and expect a decent score. Essentially, I don't want PCC to become 3-gun. 

 

It'd be a lot of fun to shoot, but I just don't think it's right for the division. 

[L9X25]

Maybe it was a safety/steel consideration.  .38 Super can go over 1,700fps with standard pistol major loadings.  Does a nice job on the steel.

[AzShooter]

Because the targets are much closer than when firing a rifle and the MDs don't want the targets destroyed by the power of the gun.   Minor rounds will keep the targets longer and will eliminate some of the danger of ricochets.  Safety First.

[Hammer002]

The rifle has advantages in many ways, making it minor made the shooter need A's.  Production is minor because of the low recoil, so the shooter then has to be accurate.  That's the whole purpose of the minor vs major in the first place - evening out guns easier to shoot vs guns with more recoil and therefore a bit harder to be accurate/fast.  "Power is something to be rewarded" as mentioned in the Principles of USPSA.  Imagine PCC with major scoring?!

Edited October 11, 2017 by Hammer002

[bmiller]

10 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

The rifle has advantages in many ways, making it minor made the shooter need A's.  Production is minor because of the low recoil, so the shooter then has to be accurate.  That's the whole purpose of the minor vs major in the first place - evening out guns easier to shoot vs guns with more recoil and therefore a bit harder to be accurate/fast.  "Power is something to be rewarded" as mentioned in the Principles of USPSA.  Imagine PCC with major scoring?!

Imagine the whining and nashing of teeth from the pcc haters if it was scored major. It would be epic!

[theWacoKid]

It's a rifle at a pistol match, you should be able to easily shoot A's.  Therefore, they thought the penalty should be on the more severe side for non-A hits when shooting a rifle.  

Edited October 11, 2017 by theWacoKid

[Mushki25]

I'm ok with the PCC getting to score as major provided they shoot a 7mm Rem mag.  That would be hilarious to see.  I am sure each club is different but the local few that shoot pcc are for lack of a better phrase are a difficult and different group of guys.  I would love to see them shoot 200 rounds of a high recoiling gun the one time they would try it.  Right, wrong or other wise it would make me chuckle.  Heck I'm chuckling just thinking about it.

[Shadyscott999]

PCC is hard to do well in matches.  It is hard because it is a accuracy division disguised as a speed division.  You have to be fast but you damn sure better be shooting A's.  

[L9X25]

1 hour ago, Mushki25 said:

I'm ok with the PCC getting to score as major provided they shoot a 7mm Rem mag.  That would be hilarious to see.  I am sure each club is different but the local few that shoot pcc are for lack of a better phrase are a difficult and different group of guys.  I would love to see them shoot 200 rounds of a high recoiling gun the one time they would try it.  Right, wrong or other wise it would make me chuckle.  Heck I'm chuckling just thinking about it.

 

Our club's PCC participation has stabilized for the most part, we usually have about 20% of our shooters shooting PCC, with occasional spikes over 30%.   We usually have 50-60+ total shooters at any match.   I cannot think of any shooter, much less a group of them, that only shoot our club because we offer PCC.  All of our PCC shooters regularly shot various pistol divisions before PCC came out, and many still cycle back and forth between pistol and PCC on a monthly basis.   Some of the folks that regularly shoot PCC are also active 3-Gun shooters on other weekends, but they are USPSA members when they shoot with our match.   

 

I do not understand the "Us" and "Them" mentality being applied to PCC shooters.  Some act as if they are a new group that has come into "Our" sport and are attempting to take it over.  Many of our folks have 3 and 4 digit USPSA numbers,  with ~30 years in USPSA, not exactly "Johnny come lately" types.  I think that we need to be careful with dividing up our USPSA shooters based on what division they choose to shoot in.  If USPSA offers it, and they choose to shoot it, better for everyone.  USPSA collects membership dues and participation fees from everyone equally and there are NO 2nd class shooters or citizens here.

 

[wgj3]

2 hours ago, L9X25 said:

 

Our club's PCC participation has stabilized for the most part, we usually have about 20% of our shooters shooting PCC, with occasional spikes over 30%.   We usually have 50-60+ total shooters at any match.   I cannot think of any shooter, much less a group of them, that only shoot our club because we offer PCC.  All of our PCC shooters regularly shot various pistol divisions before PCC came out, and many still cycle back and forth between pistol and PCC on a monthly basis.   Some of the folks that regularly shoot PCC are also active 3-Gun shooters on other weekends, but they are USPSA members when they shoot with our match.   

 

I do not understand the "Us" and "Them" mentality being applied to PCC shooters.  Some act as if they are a new group that has come into "Our" sport and are attempting to take it over.  Many of our folks have 3 and 4 digit USPSA numbers,  with ~30 years in USPSA, not exactly "Johnny come lately" types.  I think that we need to be careful with dividing up our USPSA shooters based on what division they choose to shoot in.  If USPSA offers it, and they choose to shoot it, better for everyone.  USPSA collects membership dues and participation fees from everyone equally and there are NO 2nd class shooters or citizens here.

 

 +1 to this!

[atomicferret]

The argument that it is to preserve the targets, or mitigate ricochets holds no water with me.  a 115gr bullet going 1450fps = 166PF.  how it gets there is irrelevant. If it does matter, why are we not squashing these guns in 38super..  I have no problem with a speed limit (like 1600fps), but it should be applied to all classes and calibers. 

 

I agree that the idea of PF was put into place to balance out lower recoiling, higher capacity 9mm and 45's with lower capacity, higher recoil.  Why not allow that to play out on the PCC side?  they are, after all, only competing against other PCC's. 

 

4 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

It's a rifle at a pistol match....

I think this is the real, underlying reason. no one wants to say it out loud, but some are worried that the "Overall Match Winner" is going to guys who shot rifles, instead of the Open shooters "where it belongs". 

 

I am not saying things would be better or worse if Major scoring were allowed, but it was never given a chance.  they could have made a minimum caliber for major, just like Limited.  That would have made for some interesting gun choices. 

[L9X25]

I honestly do not believe that allowing a PCC to score Major would inflate the scores very much, as it was intended to keep things "fair" in the first place.  

With or without Major scoring in PCC, you will see some HOA PCC scores from time to time, depending on the match.  

[uziforme]

A PCC shooting 9mm minor factory pressure ammo the longer barrel is not going to take the velocity past what 38 super and 9 major pistol calibers are going to produce, so the protect the steel from ammunition point if false.

 

[MHitchcock]

Not even sure why this is a discussion...if you aren't shooting very high % A's with a PCC you need to practice, not wonder why you can't shoot major. 

[Neomet]

Because if it had major scoring guys like me could win matches.  :-)  Seriously this is what Scott said, an accuracy division disguised as a speed division, at least at the top of the food chain.

[3gunDQ]

It has minor scoring because if it were major then it would be a squirtfest. You got a rifle at a pistol match.... shoot As. 

[MHitchcock]

20 minutes ago, 3gunDQ said:

It has minor scoring because if it were major then it would be a squirtfest. You got a rifle at a pistol match.... shoot As. 

 

It still is a hosefest. You just have to hose accurately. I don't have to slow down doubles on 25 yd targets compared to 5 yd, although I admit I wuss out most of the time and slow splits just  a tad at 25.

[theWacoKid]

15 hours ago, atomicferret said:

I think this is the real, underlying reason. no one wants to say it out loud, but some are worried that the "Overall Match Winner" is going to guys who shot rifles, instead of the Open shooters "where it belongs". 

 

I think this is THE most ridiculous statement I keep hearing in the PCC discussions.  If "some" aren't saying this out loud then it's not a thing, but there sure are a lot of pro-PCC folks that want to put this statement into others' mouths.  This combined results bull is just a red herring.    

[BigBamBoo]

Well I just shot in a local match with only two PCC shooters and they wrote in big Blalock letters "PCC....CHEATER!!!"...on the score sheet.

 

Now this was done in juest...kinda...but it is common to receive comments about how rifles don't belong in a pistol match. YMMV do to location or club.

Edited October 12, 2017 by BigBamBoo

[BartCarter]

I see both sides.  When I shoot, most shooters want to know all about my PCC.  Most really watch when I shoot, maybe mostly out of curiosity.  After watching me, three of my friends had me build PCCs for them.  Then there are a few, surprisingly including some of those running the match, that aren't "thrilled" with PCC.  They feel it is a pistol match, period.  They don't want to be bothered.

 

There were only three PCC entries of 64 in my IDPA match Sunday in Las Vegas.  I did very well overall and the RO would comment after each stage about bringing a rifle to a pistol match.  Don't get me wrong, he wasn't being a jerk, we were both joking back and forth and having a good time.  Maybe a lot of what we hear is joking/teasing.  I am guilty of that myself.

 

PCC isn't as big in Las Vegas as others have posted in their locations, but as much fun as it is, it will be growing here too.

[L9X25]

The only semi-legit complaints I hear about the PCC shooters stem from sometimes taking a few more seconds to retrieve their PCC when it is their turn to shoot (can be solved with strategically placed gun racks) and the extra time that it takes to ULSC, drop the bolt and hammer, then lock back the bolt, insert the flag, then drop the bolt again.  But those are the USPSA rules, so you really cannot place the blame on the shooters for that.

 

 

[rowdyb]

Squad standing around at Area match. RO asks, "Are there any PCC shooters?" And the squad replies, "no." Then more times than not the RO cadre says "Good!" emphatically and then tried to laugh it off. Sometimes it seems like a case of 'I'm just kidding' when it really is 'I'm just being serious'.

 

Btw I like pcc and shoot it once in a while. But I hear more snide comments than positives traveling out and about.

[L9X25]

George Carlin had joke about how everyone driving slower than him on the highway was an idiot and everybody driving faster was a maniac.  Only his speed was "normal". 

 

In USPSA it translates into "anyone not shooting the same gun/division that I am is an idiot and should be kicked out"  Long before the PCC's arrived on the scene, Limited and Production shooters complained about how loud the open guns were,  the open shooters complained about the production and revolver guys being slow, etc.  Anything outside of your norm is bad.  I think it is just human nature, not a good thing, but it exists.

 

So, when I shoot PCC, I complain about how loud the pistols are and about how easy the shots are to make.

Edited October 13, 2017 by L9X25

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I think the minor scoring is great. It balances things out and makes it more interesting. The other is that I would not want to shoot major 9mm out of a AR9mm blow back gun. A 45 is not bad but a 40 or 10mm would not be pleasant at major loads. Thanks, Eric