Why is the PCC division limited to Minor scoring?

[L9X25]

Eric,

 

When we first built a Mech-Tech in 9x25, we wondered how far we could go with the 9x25 case.  We loaded with N-105 and a 115gr FMJ and reached 2,200 fps before we realized that the cases were going into the chamber as 9x25 and being ejected as 10mm.  The bolt was opening far enough under pressure that it was removing the entire bottleneck.  We stopped testing at that point and pulled the remaining rounds. 

[Aircooled6racer]

57 minutes ago, L9X25 said:

Eric,

 

When we first built a Mech-Tech in 9x25, we wondered how far we could go with the 9x25 case.  We loaded with N-105 and a 115gr FMJ and reached 2,200 fps before we realized that the cases were going into the chamber as 9x25 and being ejected as 10mm.  The bolt was opening far enough under pressure that it was removing the entire bottleneck.  We stopped testing at that point and pulled the remaining rounds. 

Hello: Funny I shot some major 9mm open gun loads in my old Mech Tech and that thing shot them just fine. I would not want to do that with my AR9mm setup I have now. Thanks, Eric

[IHAVEGAS]

If you shot major in pcc then the guns would probably be loud enough so that the clubs did not have to set timers on maximum sensitivity, and the r.o.'s would not have to race to have the timer right on the muzzle at the last shot, and there would not be missed shot on timer re shoots. 

 

In other words it would ,apparently, take away 90% of the reason to bring rifles to pistol matches. 

[BartCarter]

19 hours ago, L9X25 said:

The only semi-legit complaints I hear about the PCC shooters stem from sometimes taking a few more seconds to retrieve their PCC when it is their turn to shoot (can be solved with strategically placed gun racks) and the extra time that it takes to ULSC, drop the bolt and hammer, then lock back the bolt, insert the flag, then drop the bolt again.  But those are the USPSA rules, so you really cannot place the blame on the shooters for that.

 

 

I can believe that, but that holds for all shooters.  I think  PCC takes no extra time at all if you are prepared.  I put my cased rifle against the berm when I am on deck.  As soon as the range is clear, I uncase and walk to P1 with my rifle pointed up.  As soon as the load and make ready command is given, just takes a few seconds to do that.

 

And I have watched pistol shooters that go through all kinds of stuff before they are ready to shoot.  We have all seen that.

 

Taking extra time is an individual thing, anyone can load and make ready in a very short time.

[BartCarter]

Double post 

Edited October 13, 2017 by BartCarter
Double post

[Garrett]

On October 11, 2017 at 6:05 PM, atomicferret said:

 ...they could have made a minimum caliber for major, just like Limited.  That would have made for some interesting gun choices. 

I think this would be interesting as well. If nothing else, it would make for some interesting innovations in the industry. It would be interesting to see how the different guns would work out, and if Major scoring would prove to be much of an advantage after all. 

 

For the record, yesterday's local match had 9 of 65 shooters in PCC, or almost 14%. Production Division had the most shooters at 19, with Single Stack and Limited at 14 each. 

 

It seems many of the PCC shooters are the those who used to shoot Open most often. That division has dropped to only a handful. 

[Garrett]

Double tap

Edited October 23, 2017 by Garrett

[Garrett]

So just for fun I looked at yesterday's match where I shot 90% of the 1st place PCC shooter's score. Going back and re-figuring if I was scored Major and left everyone else Minor pushes me into 1st by a wide margin. 

 

I would have have been shooting my same gun with a .40 cal barrel swapped in and 35-round mags. Recoil is not much different between the two calibers in this platform. So I don't see any major differences in how I would have shot, or what my times would have been. 

 

Based on that, I'm guessing the trend would be for most everyone to go to Major PCC, throw accuracy out the window, and make it a real hose-fest. 

 

Just an observation. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Garrett

[MHitchcock]

*sigh* this conversation is pointless. First, major scoring in PCC is never going to happen. Second, why on earth do you need major scoring for PCC? Learn to double accurately and watch your optic....

 

Major in PCC would just make PCC like single stack. Everyone would need a major and minor PCC (as well as back-ups) to make sure you could choose the most effective based on the matches particular stages.

 

This conversation reminds me of the PCC iron's only division idea. . .

[v1911]

If I’m not mistaken, my AR45 makes major. The SO and other shooters say it sounds suppressed. So just because something makes major, doesn’t mean it’s loud enough to make a difference. 

[BlackBuzzard]

There isnt as much chamber support of the 9mm case  in a pcc, as compared to a 9mm major custom pistols.

 

But then given the longer barrel, less pressure is needed to make major in pcc.

 

I have fooled around with diff loads up to 146PF, which didnt feel much different than 132 pf  with pcc.

 

I like it the way it is.......no major in pcc.

 

But if one were to go major 9mm in a 14.5" PCC, what load/powder/bullet would be best?  Heavy or light bullet?

Edited October 24, 2017 by BlackBuzzard

[L9X25]

I am thinking that the people that would like Major scoring want it because they have a .40 or .45 that already makes Major, or they are having to load special ammo to make it Minor.    I have a 9x25 PCC and I am pretty sure that the timer will pick it up .... even on the next berm.   

[MHitchcock]

There is nothing stopping you from shooting 40/45. You just need longer mags if you want the same capacity. 

[zzt]

I have nothing against scoring PCC as Minor.  As far as I'm concerned, PCC shooters enjoy a lot of advantages that pistol shooters do not, such as unlimited rounds in a mag, exemptions from up-range starts, no surrender draws, etc.  I shot a Monster Match this Sunday and one of the shooters had a PCC.  He need help from the ROs to take the chamber flag out (and insert it after shooting) and he took a while to get ready.  He even complained on the 60 round stage that he would have to reload once.

 

As an RO, I have issues with PCC rules.  Rules, not PCCs.  I think everything is lax and needs to be tightened up.  One of the issues is how you carry the gun to and from shooting position and how you store it.  The PCC shooter on my squad didn't do anything wrong, but I saw plenty to worry about on other squads.  Carried up, some shooters actually break the 180 inadvertently.  It may only be for a second, but it happens.  Same with carrying muzzle down, except there is the possibility of sweeping your toe when you turn.

 

I'm planning to get a PCC, but only for Steel Challenge.  I'm not anti-PCC, but for me, USPSA is a pistol sport.

[MHitchcock]

If there are safety concerns it is a match director issue. At local matches we unbag/flag and reflag/bag on the course of fire. No issues with even new shooters breaking 180's on make ready or getting to the line. I think that PCC was a good addition to USPSA personally. I like being able to improve rifle skills on challenging courses. I never understood the aversion, you don't compete directly against PCC, and open>PCC at majors...so it really didn't shake things up. As far as taking longer to get ready, I don't see how an extra 10 seconds makes a difference, the average C/D production/revolver/single stack shooter is going to take MUCH longer on the course overall from make ready to range clear. So I don't see why people have such a fixation with that time period. And if a shooter needs RO assistance to remove the flag, they need to revise their make-ready process. 

[L9X25]

According to the "guidelines", a flagged PCC is the same as a holstered pistol, except for no sweeping.  As long as you keep the gun vertical (up or down), you do not have to worry about slightly breaking the 180 when carrying the flagged PCC to, or from, the start box.  IMO a flagged PCC is safer than a holstered pistol since the flag proves the chamber is empty, while a holstered pistol could have been reloaded after the last ULSC command.  Also, many holster positions either sweep the person wearing the holster, or others, while walking around a stage. 

[IHAVEGAS]

 

9 hours ago, MHitchcock said:

 I never understood the aversion,

 

I think there would be an aversion to anything that was just thrown out for the clubs to deal with, with no forethought on the rules and no clear written rules in black and white. 

 

Right now the only long term problem I know of is reshoots / impractical demands on r.o.'s with some of the super quiet guns (and the fact that many pcc shooters do not seem to have read the "guidelines"). 

[zzt]

L9X25, the 'guidelines' are specific about the 90 degree rule, and sweeping.  They also mention "reasonably vertical" in the Gun Handling section.  The reason I'd like to see the 'guidelines' tightened up, or better yet, rules, is consistency.  A PCC shooter at a match last weekend was warned several times about breaking 180 while carrying his rifle.  It was chamber flagged and he carried it vertically, muzzle up.  The muzzle occasionally broke 90 to the rear by a couple of degrees.  He was eventually DQ'd for it.  His match was ruined while other PCC shooters did the same thing and were not DQ'd.   My guess is the RO applied the 90 degree rule instead of the (paraphrasing) if it's chamber flagged it's holstered and generally vertical 'guidelines'.  That's a shame.

 

I RO at three different clubs, and the 'rules' for PCC vary at each.  

[L9X25]

I do agree that having nothing more than "guidelines", and having the clubs "sort it out", leads to a lot of variation from club to club.  That is not a good situation.  

 

Based on that RO's interpretation of "reasonably vertical",  the majority of shooters at our last match could have been disqualified.  Many have "baby stroller" style 3-gun carts that hold the rifle at ~45 degree downward angle, muzzle pointed at the ground, and they roll around freely like that.  What if someone carried their rifle on a sling?

 

[Patrick Scott]

Im kind of lazy and didnt read all of this, but I believe PCC should be minor. Rifles are easier to hit stuff with at a pistol match and there should be a balance(DVC). Making the division minor helps with that balance. 

On another note, most of the PCC guns I see are AR15 based guns, either converted 556 guns or dedicated pistol caliber lowers. 9 minor beats these guns up enough as it is, major would break stuff in a hurry. I have shot 9 major Open pistol rounds out of my gun  just to get some chrono numbers and let me tell you, it works the trigger group(mil-spec at the time) HARD. Reset was violent enough to cause pain in my trigger finger. 

[L9X25]

47 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

Im kind of lazy and didnt read all of this, but I believe PCC should be minor. Rifles are easier to hit stuff with at a pistol match and there should be a balance(DVC). Making the division minor helps with that balance. 
 

 

The idea behind Minor/Major is to balance WITHIN a division, not balance between the divisions.   The idea is that you can shoot Limited 9mm or .45, and you want to be able to recognize that the .45 is more powerful (slower) to shoot than a comparable 9mm.   There is no effort made to make Production more competitive against Open.  There would be no reason to attempt to balance the divisions against one another.   Many clubs publish an "Overall Results" for simplicity, but every shooter is really only shooting against others within their division.  It should not matter if PCC beats Open, or vice versa, they are not competing against one another.

 

With that said, I am not really in favor of complicating things and allowing Major scoring in PCC.  I have owned a "Major" caliber PCC for over a decade and shot it in PCC while shooting Major and being scored Minor.   I purchased a 9mm PCC to play this game because those are the rules of this game.  

[Patrick Scott]

2 minutes ago, L9X25 said:

 

The idea behind Minor/Major is to balance WITHIN a division, not balance between the divisions.   The idea is that you can shoot Limited 9mm or .45, and you want to be able to recognize that the .45 is more powerful (slower) to shoot than a comparable 9mm.   There is no effort made to make Production more competitive against Open.  There would be no reason to attempt to balance the divisions against one another.   Many clubs publish an "Overall Results" for simplicity, but every shooter is really only shooting against others within their division.  It should not matter if PCC beats Open, or vice versa, they are not competing against one another.

 

With that said, I am not really in favor of complicating things and allowing Major scoring in PCC.  I have owned a "Major" caliber PCC for over a decade and shot it in PCC while shooting Major and being scored Minor.   I purchased a 9mm PCC to play this game because those are the rules of this game.  

I was speaking for within the division. As I said the rifle makes targets easier to hit so the minor scoring balances that within the division for the shooter of that division. USPSA is supposed to be a balance of accuracy, speed and power. If you give PCC Major ammo you ruin that balance in my opinion as the rifle is already strong with accuracy and speed. 

[L9X25]

I think that USPSA is dealing with what they came into, while making things easier going into the future.  This game basically started with Single Stack .45 and a few .38 Supers and 9mm Browning Highpowers thrown in.  Gamers being gamers forced a recognition of the .45, thus the Major/Minor adjustment.  Since then, Production and Carry Optics have been added and they have remained Minor only.  We all know that there are guns that would fit in the divisions that are .40 & .45, but they are not allowed in Production or CO because rules are rules.  Now PCC comes along and it is also Minor Only, I do not see a reason why USPSA would make an adjustment to PCC while leaving Production & Carry Optics Minor only.   

[Patrick Scott]

3 minutes ago, L9X25 said:

I think that USPSA is dealing with what they came into, while making things easier going into the future.  This game basically started with Single Stack .45 and a few .38 Supers and 9mm Browning Highpowers thrown in.  Gamers being gamers forced a recognition of the .45, thus the Major/Minor adjustment.  Since then, Production and Carry Optics have been added and they have remained Minor only.  We all know that there are guns that would fit in the divisions that are .40 & .45, but they are not allowed in Production or CO because rules are rules.  Now PCC comes along and it is also Minor Only, I do not see a reason why USPSA would make an adjustment to PCC while leaving Production & Carry Optics Minor only.   

Major is allowed in every division, its just not recognized or of benefit in some. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Patrick Scott

[fbzero]

I would imagine that it's to promote accuracy instead of hosing, which makes sense to me when you're shooting a rifle at pistol distances.  *Not complaining about the division...will probably get my own PCC eventually

Edited October 25, 2017 by fbzero