New division/revamp Carry ops?

[TaterHead]

Looking forward to a slingshot division. Would have to be limited, given the sights.

[buckley]

I like CO the way it is. In my opinion, it doesn't need to be gamier. Open exists for that.

[HCH]

We should change the name of Carry Optics to Ghetto Open. 

[Broncman]

10 minutes ago, HCH said:

We should change the name of Carry Optics to Ghetto Open. 

Why does everyone refer to CO as a "poor man's open".

 

Nothing in common with open except a dot.... No major PF, No magwell, No external trigger mods, No slide lightening etc, No 170 mm mags, No race holster, No magnetic mag pouches.

 

Come on guys....

 

Carry Optics got me into USPSA. I now have a PCC ,and an Open gun. Neither of which I have shot in a match and will not (crossing fingers behind back) untill make at least A Class.

 

I would like to see a magwell... 

[sweetback]

COPTIKS is good to go just as is:
One or no reloads
141 mm mags
minor ammo
No excuse for BLURRED front sight

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[rowdyb]

5 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

So kill Production then. Good idea

i don't think of killing it as folding it into something else. we were 'whiteboarding' ideas, that's mine. not like i'm starting a campaign and emailing hq with a petition hahaha.

open major, just like open is now but your gun better make major at chrono.

open minor, just like open now for rules but guns in it are only scored minor. carry optics guns could fold into this.

limited major. just like we have now.

limited minor. just like we have not but for guns making 125pf. good place for new people with guns they've modded before wanting or learning about competition. good place to tinker. current Prod guns could fold into here by just filling up there mags. ss minor, lim ten minor could end up here as well.

10 round, totally stock division. run SS holster and mag pouch rules. gun has to be 100% stock. also sort of like ss now where major and minor would mix, but no consideration given to capacity relative to power factor. shoot your gun exactly as it came out of the box, ten rounds. would definitely be a Frankenstien division as a lot of guns could fall into this division.

[vluc]

6 hours ago, HoMiE said:

If someone wants to shoot a 9 minor 2011, they can do it in Open already. I don't think Carry Optics should be an Open minor or unlimited division. I kinda wish they would go back to the 10 round limit for CO. 

 

I found the 10 round limit to be fine, kept some of the challenge of stage strategy.  Sorry to see it add 140 mags, but still enjoy it.  Should be Production Optics, not Carry Optics.

 

No to the magwell, race holster, mag and holster placement changes and no to the trigger race.

Edited August 30, 2017 by vluc

[zzt]

The notion that plastic guns are at a disadvantage in Open is daft.  They won't last as long as a 2011; that's true.  I shoot with two Open Masters.  One shoots a customized M&P and blows the doors off of everyone.  The other Master shoots a 2011, and is only a tad behind.  BTW, that M now shoot CO and does just as well at it.

 

I don't like the idea of everyone being scored the same.  Shooting Major IS harder than shooting Minor.

 

I think CO is fine as it now is.  You don't have to replace the trigger to get a good trigger pull.  I'm okay with the addition of an inconspicuous magwell.  After all, this is a CARRY optics division.  There is no justification for turning it into a baby open division.  If it had been available for a couple of years, we would have many fewer Open Minor shooters.  Heck.  The only reason I went to Open from Limited is I could no longer see the sights well, even with an insert.

[Shadyscott999]

8 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

So kill Production then. Good idea

 

Production no longer exists.  

[Steve RA]

Personally, I wish you could use 1911s in Carry Optics as I have several with Burris FF IIIs on them.  That would give you a choice instead of just SS.  Without the dots on them, of course.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Steve RA
just for fun

[jkrispies]

10 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Personally, I wish you could use 1911s in Carry Optics as I have several with Burris FF IIIs on them.  That would give you a choice instead of just SS.  Without the dots on them, of course.

+1.  

[LeviSS]

Wouldn't the capacity of a 1911 make it impossible vs. some of the double stacks carrying 23 rounds?

[waktasz]

3 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

Production no longer exists.  

 

Stock cars aren't stock

[teros135]

41 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

Stock cars aren't stock

 

Good point.  

 

And "Production" doesn't mean "box stock, shoot it just as it was when you bought it at Cabela's".  

[jkrispies]

2 hours ago, LeviSS said:

Wouldn't the capacity of a 1911 make it impossible vs. some of the double stacks carrying 23 rounds?

Difficult, yes.  Impossible, no.  I doubt that anybody would use it at the Nationals... but if my reloads are spot on, it would be fine against Joe Blow at the local level which is as far as I'd take it.  That and it would be THE Carry Optics go-to gun for Steel Challenge.  Either way, the option would be nice.  Plus, if I didn't live in Crapifornia and wanted a carry gun I'd probably go with a 9mm 1911 set up as a Carry Optic-- it would be nice to compete with what I carried.

[LeviSS]

1 minute ago, jkrispies said:

Difficult, yes.  Impossible, no.  I doubt that anybody would use it at the Nationals... but if my reloads are spot on, it would be fine against Joe Blow at the local level which is as far as I'd take it.  That and it would be THE Carry Optics go-to gun for Steel Challenge.  Either way, the option would be nice.  Plus, if I didn't live in Crapifornia and wanted a carry gun I'd probably go with a 9mm 1911 set up as a Carry Optic-- it would be nice to compete with what I carried.

Ok, I can see that.  Especially for Steel Challenge.

[OPENB]

9 hours ago, jkrispies said:

Difficult, yes.  Impossible, no.  I doubt that anybody would use it at the Nationals... but if my reloads are spot on, it would be fine against Joe Blow at the local level which is as far as I'd take it.  That and it would be THE Carry Optics go-to gun for Steel Challenge.  Either way, the option would be nice.  Plus, if I didn't live in Crapifornia and wanted a carry gun I'd probably go with a 9mm 1911 set up as a Carry Optic-- it would be nice to compete with what I carried.

You already admit that it would be difficult, so I take it you agree it wouldn't be competitive, you're just having fun. So just shoot it in open and have fun.

[IronArcher]

I don't like the idea of open minor vs Carry Optics.
We don't need compensators or 1lb SAO triggers.
I didn't think we needed extended mags, but I also don't think we need another 10 round division. I would have been content with either 15 ( but now ROs need to count to 15 without making a mistake) or Stock magazine length.
For most that would be around 17... some more, some less, but not drastically so.
I couldn't care less about starting condition. I would PROBABLY allow SAO guns in...probably. But I'm ok with da or striker gun requirements.
A mag well would be nice, but I have trouble arguing for that when we get 140mm mags. How much is that Magwell going to save you on your 1 reload on larger courses?
I would allow (as apparently USPSA agrees with me) on allowing different hammers, I would probably also allow different triggers... but I really don't care either way.
It IS nice to have another minor only scored division.
Major, while it might be a little more challenging to shoot, has way too much advantage over minor in divisions that allow both.
I would be ok with looking at balancing that somewhat.
Production, leave it alone. It's a well established class, and lots of people have purchased their gear with the current rules in mind when they made the purchase.
CO is still somewhat new... if you are going to make changes, do it now or leave it be... that said, now that I bought mag extensions, I'd rather not have them taken away.


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[compshootfl]

I like the magwell idea.  I have an M&P Pro that does double duty as a limited (with the 40 slide with rear sight) and a CO (with the 9mm slide & optic) it is a pain to remove the magwell when I want to shoot CO. It would make my life easier.

[3gunDQ]

make em shoot major! LOL

 

I mean who carries low power ammo in a carry gun? It is CARRY OPTICS right? carry +p or the like so they should bump PF up.

Edited September 1, 2017 by 3gunDQ

[Mushki25]

My idea to cut back on a few of the redundant divisions:

Open: Same rules as we have today.  Carry optics will move here.

Limited: Same rules we have today

L10: Same rules we have today but the changes to the other divisions will add all SS and metal framed production guns.

Production: Plastic framed guns, mod what you want.  10 round limit.

Rev: Same as today.

PCC: Same as today.  Personally I would get rid of shooting rifles in a pistol competition.

 

I would like to production disappear as well but it may be a good idea to have a starter division.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Mushki25 said:

My idea to cut back on a few of the redundant divisions:

Open: Same rules as we have today.  Carry optics will move here.

Limited: Same rules we have today

L10: Same rules we have today but the changes to the other divisions will add all SS and metal framed production guns.

Production: Plastic framed guns, mod what you want.  10 round limit.

Rev: Same as today.

PCC: Same as today.  Personally I would get rid of shooting rifles in a pistol competition.

 

I would like to production disappear as well but it may be a good idea to have a starter division.

 

So you would basically kill Production (one of the biggest divisions) and turn it into L10 metal and L10 Plastic. Terrible idea IMO.

 

I do think you could merge L10 and SS, as people run SS in L10 anyway. Or just kill L10 and leave SS a lone. SS isn't huge but it has some popularity. L10 is only popular in states you can't shoot Limited. But, in those states Limited is L10.

 

If you move CO to Open, you basically kill CO. I'm cool with that, but tell it like it is, you're not moving a division you're killing it.

[Mushki25]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So you would basically kill Production (one of the biggest divisions) and turn it into L10 metal and L10 Plastic. Terrible idea IMO.

 

I do think you could merge L10 and SS, as people run SS in L10 anyway. Or just kill L10 and leave SS a lone. SS isn't huge but it has some popularity. L10 is only popular in states you can't shoot Limited. But, in those states Limited is L10.

 

If you move CO to Open, you basically kill CO. I'm cool with that, but tell it like it is, you're not moving a division you're killing it.

I am not trying to kill any division rather restructure in a manner that makes sense.  I would actually like to see the divisions revert back to open and standard but that would never fly now that we have gone so many years with the additional options.  Yes, the tanfo and cz's would be harmed by my proposal but somebody has to lose in order to consolidate divisions.  From a pure competitive sense I feel this is an equitable way of dividing the current popular guns into new divisions.  Another option would be to lump all of the limited capacity divisions together and allow some type of capacity advantage for minor just as SS currently does.  Creating specific divisions for minor was a mistake in my opinion.

 

This all may be easy for me to say though.  I currently shoot limited which my plan did not effect.  Before this I shot production with a plastic gun and never felt that I was disadvantaged in doing so.  I only changed divisions to shoot against the best shooter in the area.

[Racinready300ex]

It's just words, you can already shoot a CO gun in open but no one does. If you merge those two divisions, no one will use a CO gun. So I call it "killing" you call it "restructuring". Same difference. Either way, that's a change I'd be fine with.

[jkrispies]

On 8/31/2017 at 5:51 AM, OPENB said:

You already admit that it would be difficult, so I take it you agree it wouldn't be competitive, you're just having fun. So just shoot it in open and have fun.

 

I understand and totally acknowledge your point, but for me personally... no.  I would not entertain the thought of shooting a Carry Optics style gun in Open "just for fun" because while the guns may be superficially similar, beyond all the other differences that make a CO gun totally sub-par for Open, the rules for Open use a completely different holstering and magazine placement system that doesn't interest me at all.  I do like the CO holstering system, though, as it's more "real world" which is why I've competed in Single Stack for so many years.  Shooting an otherwise strict CO platform in Open would be like me justifying entering a Baja truck in a stock car race simply because I like to race and stock car races are all I had to choose from.  If I were going to shoot any gun simply for kicks and giggles, I wouldn't bother paying an entry fee to a competition but save my money and shoot it on my own.   

 

Returning to the point of holsters, one thing about these "let's change the division rules" discussions is that everybody loves to relegate their logic to gun rules while totally ignoring the rules which govern all the other equipment found on the belt.  As the name "Carry Optics" implies, the intent behind this category is about competing with a carry gun, and carry has just as much to do with holster and pouch choice as gun choice.  If somebody were to walk down the street with an Open holster "for carry," they would be ridiculed as much as I would be laughed and pointed at for competing in Open with a Carry Optic setup.

 

Maybe I notice the rig rules more because I primarily shoot Steel Challenge, where, for instance, the only real difference between a Limited and Single Stack shooter is the holster and its placement on the belt:  and it is a BIG difference in Steel Challenge where draw time can make or break a shooter's game.  Whenever I hear somebody say that a Single Stack or Production shooter in Steel Challenge should be allowed to put their holster wherever they please, or use whatever type of holster they want, my blood boils because it immediately turns these guns into Limited and makes the Single Stack and Production divisions themselves totally moot.

 

Frankly, when it was originally created I was a bit befuddled that CO was envisioned at all but can now see myself having an interest in it as somebody whose eyes are getting older, and so I'm learning to appreciate a dot on a pistol... but I still have little interest in going to a full open setup.  If the change to standard capacity magazines was developed because folks wanted to make Carry Optics "more Open-like" or more "Limited-ish" I wish they would have chosen the route of allowing for 1911 style guns more as a "list change" than anything else.  After all, LOTS of folks carry 1911's so that wouldn't have changed any of the category's original intent.  If the direction of change continues as is implied in this discussion thread by bringing in major scoring, etc., then CO will simply melt into Open and disappear completely, just as Production would turn into Limited and disappear completely if the same changes were made to it.

Edited September 1, 2017 by jkrispies