POP (PCC Opposition Party)

[rowdyb]

Can I be a part of the pro-pcc party? Which thread do I get in for that?

[StealthyBlagga]

I just put together a PCC Primer - I tried to distill all the new rules and guidelines into a simple, one-page poster, which we plan to display it at each stage when we run PCC at our USPSA Handgun match on Sunday. If anyone would like a copy of what I put together, contact me by EM or IM and I will be happy to send a copy over.

ETA: Lots of people asked, so I am attaching the PCC Primer to this post... ENJOY

USPSA PCC Primer.pdf

Edited July 13, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Patrick Scott]

On the flip side of some of this, should be interesting for PCC shooters showing up to matches with ROs untrained for PCC...

[bthoefer]

Yeah, no one should ever RO for the first time...too dangerous. I respect both Sarge and Charlie a lot, but that has got to be the silliest argument I have ever seen in opposition to a division.

Long guns are, but their very nature, more controllable and safer than pistols. If an RO can not safely run a PCC, they can step aside.

This is different than having one new RO. This is having an entire match staff on their first time.

In USPSA most ROs have no experience with long guns. I thought PCC could be fun when it was first brought up, but the more matches I see it at the less I like it and do t think it fits in a USPSA match.

One of the major downsides to 3 gun for a lot of us is the concept of "big boy rules" allowing borderline unsafe behavior. I've been muzzled more times by PCC shooters than I had been in 5 years of shooting/ROing/stats/MD.

[rhett45acp]

At first I did not like the idea at all. The issues with starting positions, squads delayed and gun handling all piled up in my head. Jeez, a headache I do not need right now.

Now my opinion has changed, why not, let the bugs get worked out and measure the outcome from real world experience. I have opened it up for our July match. We will embrace and give it a fair and balanced run. If it winds up being a CF or the best thing since sliced bread, lets let it cultivate and see what happens.

Only thing I am sticking too, if it slows the matches down significantly for <5% of competitors in PCC, then I really have to question.

[Rangerdug]

Yeah, no one should ever RO for the first time...too dangerous. I respect both Sarge and Charlie a lot, but that has got to be the silliest argument I have ever seen in opposition to a division.

Long guns are, but their very nature, more controllable and safer than pistols. If an RO can not safely run a PCC, they can step aside.

This is different than having one new RO. This is having an entire match staff on their first time.

In USPSA most ROs have no experience with long guns. I thought PCC could be fun when it was first brought up, but the more matches I see it at the less I like it and do t think it fits in a USPSA match.

One of the major downsides to 3 gun for a lot of us is the concept of "big boy rules" allowing borderline unsafe behavior. I've been muzzled more times by PCC shooters than I had been in 5 years of shooting/ROing/stats/MD.

Wouldn't it be part of your responsibilities as an RO to read up and familiarize yourself on the PCC rules.

If someone muzzles you ( I would like to know the context/ definition of "all" these times.), what was/is your response. Are you pointing it out, DQ'ing them or nothing. Because that seems a rather bloated claim to make with a Div that is only a couple of weeks old, with five years of experience.

If someone points any type of gun at me, there are going to be words. Not always tense, I will educate a novice and the occasional ignorant shooter the first time, after that kindness is over. This is a learning process after all, and if you ain't correctly educating/correcting people how will they learn.

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[perttime]

I just put together a PCC Primer - I tried to distill all the new rules and guidelines into a simple, one-page poster, which we plan to display it at each stage when we run PCC at our USPSA Handgun match on Sunday. If anyone would like a copy of what I put together, contact me by EM or IM and I will be happy to send a copy over.

Can you post a copy - or even just the text - here?

[rhett45acp]

Yes, Please Post your PCC Primer.

[j33716]

Personally I think the only problem is they are trying to place rifles in a pistol match.

If they put the division in Multi-Gun (where they already have the rule book for rifles) it wouldn't be an issue. RO's are already trained for it. Match Directors don't have to change much. The only short fall would be long shots for the PCC.

IMO, I like the division but it's a rifle and therefore belongs in a rifle match.

I predict PCC will become a separate match where pistols are allowed. Starts will be like steel matches but with movement.

Edited July 12, 2016 by j33716

[Tech32]

Personally I think the only problem is they are trying to place rifles in a pistol match.

If they put the division in Multi-Gun (where they already have the rule book for rifles) it wouldn't be an issue. RO's are already trained for it. Match Directors don't have to change much. The only short fall would be long shots for the PCC.

IMO, I like the division but it's a rifle and therefore belongs in a rifle match.

I predict PCC will become a separate match where pistols are allowed. Starts will be like steel matches but with movement.

At first I kind of agreed, it should be a different match, but really it is. Just like revolver shooters don't compete with open shooters. Each division is basically a different match, since you aren't competing against each other. If you aren't shooting PCC, it really has zero affect on your match. Other than maybe your ego is hurt when you see the combined match results?

[L3324temp]

Turnout is really the only issue I see. Some local matches already run far to long and adding another xx PPC shooters will make things worse. One local match I used to shoot previously set a cap to the number of shooters who can register. Allowing PPC shooters in now just bumps out the pistol guys who have been participating for years.

[guns_and_labs]

Wouldn't it be part of your responsibilities as an RO to read up and familiarize yourself on the PCC rules.

I think the point made previously was that it might have been a good idea to provide the information and training to ROs on a consistent basis BEFORE having people show up at matches wanting to play in the new division. ROs do not have to be MG certified, and I doubt most are, but now seemingly are required to be PCC certified -- and no one has told them that yet.

[Tech32]

Turnout is really the only issue I see. Some local matches already run far to long and adding another xx PPC shooters will make things worse. One local match I used to shoot previously set a cap to the number of shooters who can register. Allowing PPC shooters in now just bumps out the pistol guys who have been participating for years.

I think in this day and age, the more safe, pro gun people we have in the shooting sports the better. We need to unite. Hopefully the new number of PCC shooters means more people to help set up and tear down and help matches run smoother and faster.

[L3324temp]

I find most people start getting antsy around 1-2pm for a match that starts early in the morning on a hot day. Many matches go well past that without adding in extra PPC shooters. My favorite match I shoot is unsanctioned, we get about 25-30 shooters and it's done by noon.

[jrswanson1]

Just because this thread exists, I'm building a PCC and using it in USPSA.

[swede]

We had our 1st local match allowing PCC's a week ago, and while I was skeptical about how this was going to affect the flow of the match, it had little impact. The folks at Custer Sportsman's club did an excellent job specifying a separate start position for PCC shooters (every stage had a pink dot spray painted on a wall that the PCC shooters aimed at for the start position). Sure, it took a few seconds longer for the PCC's to unload and show clear, but it had little impact.

PCC is the 1st division since Open/Limited to allow more than 10 rounds. Not only that, there are NO restrictions on mag length or capacity, and dots and comps are allowed. It's a very cheap way to try out what is essentially Open division with a rifle.

[teros135]

Personally I think the only problem is they are trying to place rifles in a pistol match.

If they put the division in Multi-Gun (where they already have the rule book for rifles) it wouldn't be an issue. RO's are already trained for it. Match Directors don't have to change much. The only short fall would be long shots for the PCC.

IMO, I like the division but it's a rifle and therefore belongs in a rifle match.

I predict PCC will become a separate match where pistols are allowed. Starts will be like steel matches but with movement.

At first I kind of agreed, it should be a different match, but really it is. Just like revolver shooters don't compete with open shooters. Each division is basically a different match, since you aren't competing against each other. If you aren't shooting PCC, it really has zero affect on your match. Other than maybe your ego is hurt when you see the combined match results?

This response has become the mantra of the pro-PCC people. “It’s not a problem - you’re not shooting against them anyway - it’s your ego and your fear that’s the problem”.

Not. What the poster above said is he doesn’t think RIFLES belong in a PISTOL match. A lot of people think that. It’s not that we’re all afraid that a rifle will beat us (it probably will, because it’s a RIFLE). Rather, many folks simply don’t want to have to deal with the extra complications brought by bringing rifles into the pistol division of USPSA. Among those are the attitude that so many of the PCC-ers bring into the discussion, such as comments about “ego” or “ignorance” or whatever. I keep trying to have a positive approach to PCC, but then somebody displays the attitude and I have to go searching for the will to cooperate again.

We’re truly sorry you don’t feel you fit anywhere else, but it’s not a handgun you’re toting and you’re asking us to not only let us into our house, you look like you’re trying to take it over (just read all the pressure on BE). Are you surprised there’s resistance?

[Rangerdug]

Turnout is really the only issue I see. Some local matches already run far to long and adding another xx PPC shooters will make things worse. One local match I used to shoot previously set a cap to the number of shooters who can register. Allowing PPC shooters in now just bumps out the pistol guys who have been participating for years.

I disagree with that statement. One, most guys shooting PCC were guys that shot pistols so that is unrealistic comment. As for is of match size and ultimately limits. I would think it sucks for any person to not make the cut, but it has nothing to do with the firearms used. I need remind you what the P stands for in USPSA...hint, it ain't pistol.

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[Tech32]

Personally I think the only problem is they are trying to place rifles in a pistol match.

If they put the division in Multi-Gun (where they already have the rule book for rifles) it wouldn't be an issue. RO's are already trained for it. Match Directors don't have to change much. The only short fall would be long shots for the PCC.

IMO, I like the division but it's a rifle and therefore belongs in a rifle match.

I predict PCC will become a separate match where pistols are allowed. Starts will be like steel matches but with movement.

At first I kind of agreed, it should be a different match, but really it is. Just like revolver shooters don't compete with open shooters. Each division is basically a different match, since you aren't competing against each other. If you aren't shooting PCC, it really has zero affect on your match. Other than maybe your ego is hurt when you see the combined match results?

This response has become the mantra of the pro-PCC people. Its not a problem - youre not shooting against them anyway - its your ego and your fear thats the problem.

Not. What the poster above said is he doesnt think RIFLES belong in a PISTOL match. A lot of people think that. Its not that were all afraid that a rifle will beat us (it probably will, because its a RIFLE). Rather, many folks simply dont want to have to deal with the extra complications brought by bringing rifles into the pistol division of USPSA. Among those are the attitude that so many of the PCC-ers bring into the discussion, such as comments about ego or ignorance or whatever. I keep trying to have a positive approach to PCC, but then somebody displays the attitude and I have to go searching for the will to cooperate again.

Were truly sorry you dont feel you fit anywhere else, but its not a handgun youre toting and youre asking us to not only let us into our house, you look like youre trying to take it over (just read all the pressure on BE). Are you surprised theres resistance?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a smartass with the ego comment. I am sorry you read it that way.

I like PCC. It's fun. I also shoot limited and production. They are fun as well. If PCC went away, I still would shoot limited and production as I still will with PCC available anyway.

I guess I don't see PCC shooters trying to"take over" USPSA. They just want a place to play in a USPSA match.

[CHA-LEE]

A major issue I see with PCC is that USPSA HQ has put very little effort into the clubs running the matches to ensure that the integration of PCC will go smoothly. They basically turned on PCC, threw some rules out there and wipe their hands of the task. Why wouldn't they at least e-mail the Club MD's to give them some guidelines on how to effectively integrate the new non-pistol division? Why isn't NROI deploying an online PCC RO update certification for all of the currently certified RO's and CRO's?

As a club president that pays USPSA over $1500 year in "Fee's" its pretty disappointing to see their total lack of proactive club support. Especially when their endless marching orders are "Grow the sport, Grow the sport, Grow the sport". Grow the sport for what? So we can make USPSA more money to waste?

[JonF]

They actually did release a "PCC Best Practices" memo that summarizes the rule changes and some info on how to integrate the division.

[2011BLDR]

Personally I think the only problem is they are trying to place rifles in a pistol match.

If they put the division in Multi-Gun (where they already have the rule book for rifles) it wouldn't be an issue. RO's are already trained for it. Match Directors don't have to change much. The only short fall would be long shots for the PCC.

IMO, I like the division but it's a rifle and therefore belongs in a rifle match.

I predict PCC will become a separate match where pistols are allowed. Starts will be like steel matches but with movement.

At first I kind of agreed, it should be a different match, but really it is. Just like revolver shooters don't compete with open shooters. Each division is basically a different match, since you aren't competing against each other. If you aren't shooting PCC, it really has zero affect on your match. Other than maybe your ego is hurt when you see the combined match results?

I shot PCC this last match along with one other shooter on our normal squad, we were the first squad done of 3. It is just a different gun type the same as the other divisions. Before PCC I would sometimes shoot a .223 rifle with frangible ammo ( avoids damage on pistol steel) in 2-3 matches a year.

I don't understand the hate for PCC but I would support going back to NO Divisions, everyone heads up. The reality is that Production, Single Stack and Revolver divisions have Changed USPSA stage design (i.e. 32 round stage limit and eight round exposures). Back when we didn’t have Divisions and the early days of Limited we had 40-60 round field courses, and level 1 matches were 250- 400 rounds.

[bthoefer]

Wouldn't it be part of your responsibilities as an RO to read up and familiarize yourself on the PCC rules.

I think the point made previously was that it might have been a good idea to provide the information and training to ROs on a consistent basis BEFORE having people show up at matches wanting to play in the new division. ROs do not have to be MG certified, and I doubt most are, but now seemingly are required to be PCC certified -- and no one has told them that yet.

Exactly.

I even asked Troy about something that would be a DQable offense if someone did it with a pistol and his response was essentially "I dont know".

[DocMedic]

Cha-lee, how would you incorporate PCC into a local level USPSA match from HQ? What would you like to see and what would you need as the MD of your match form HQ to send you to make sure PCC will sit well for you? lets work on resolutions to make the transition flawless.

Edited July 12, 2016 by DocMedic

[bthoefer]

Yeah, no one should ever RO for the first time...too dangerous. I respect both Sarge and Charlie a lot, but that has got to be the silliest argument I have ever seen in opposition to a division.

Long guns are, but their very nature, more controllable and safer than pistols. If an RO can not safely run a PCC, they can step aside.

This is different than having one new RO. This is having an entire match staff on their first time.

In USPSA most ROs have no experience with long guns. I thought PCC could be fun when it was first brought up, but the more matches I see it at the less I like it and do t think it fits in a USPSA match.

One of the major downsides to 3 gun for a lot of us is the concept of "big boy rules" allowing borderline unsafe behavior. I've been muzzled more times by PCC shooters than I had been in 5 years of shooting/ROing/stats/MD.

Wouldn't it be part of your responsibilities as an RO to read up and familiarize yourself on the PCC rules.

If someone muzzles you ( I would like to know the context/ definition of "all" these times.), what was/is your response. Are you pointing it out, DQ'ing them or nothing. Because that seems a rather bloated claim to make with a Div that is only a couple of weeks old, with five years of experience.

If someone points any type of gun at me, there are going to be words. Not always tense, I will educate a novice and the occasional ignorant shooter the first time, after that kindness is over. This is a learning process after all, and if you ain't correctly educating/correcting people how will they learn.

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What rules?

You realize that the rules are only a week old right? USPSA has been encouraging the division essentially as an outlaw division, with no rules in place since it's announcement.

What rule do you cite to DQ someone who swept you with a flagged PCC before the rules were published?

My general response to getting swept is to firmly tell whoever did it to watch their muzzle. If they do it again I have no problem telling them that if they point their gun at me again they will see mine pointed back.

Saying "it's flagged" is no different than saying it's unloaded, is no excuse for poor gun handling. A quick YouTube search will show plenty of ADs with guns people thought were unloaded.

I've been swept ever single match that allows PCC in my area, and it would be more if I hadn't started avoiding squadding with PCC shooters. I've been swept exactly once by a pistol shooter, with a couple of close calls.