POP (PCC Opposition Party)

[mreed911]

Didn't a wise man once say the purpose of a pistol was to fight your way back to a long gun? So, in essence, the pistol-proving nature of USPSA has followed the same path... back to a rifle.

/ducking for cover

[mreed911]

My general response to getting swept is to firmly tell whoever did it to watch their muzzle. If they do it again I have no problem telling them that if they point their gun at me again they will see mine pointed back.

I'll politely call BS on this. You'd seriously draw your gun and point it at someone at a match when it's clear they have no intention whatsoever of harming you? Besides a DQable offense and likely being criminally illegal, it's an extreme over-reaction for a flagged weapon.

Yes, the behavior needs to be called out and corrected.

No, that doesn't need to be at the hostile end of anyone else's gun.

[teros135]

My general response to getting swept is to firmly tell whoever did it to watch their muzzle. If they do it again I have no problem telling them that if they point their gun at me again they will see mine pointed back.

I'll politely call BS on this. You'd seriously draw your gun and point it at someone at a match when it's clear they have no intention whatsoever of harming you? Besides a DQable offense and likely being criminally illegal, it's an extreme over-reaction for a flagged weapon.

Yes, the behavior needs to be called out and corrected.

No, that doesn't need to be at the hostile end of anyone else's gun.

True. We do need to call it out when somebody mishandles a gUn, for the safety of all. We just need to do it judiciously.

[bthoefer]

My general response to getting swept is to firmly tell whoever did it to watch their muzzle. If they do it again I have no problem telling them that if they point their gun at me again they will see mine pointed back.

I'll politely call BS on this. You'd seriously draw your gun and point it at someone at a match when it's clear they have no intention whatsoever of harming you? Besides a DQable offense and likely being criminally illegal, it's an extreme over-reaction for a flagged weapon.

Yes, the behavior needs to be called out and corrected.

No, that doesn't need to be at the hostile end of anyone else's gun.

I didn't say I've drawn.

I made the point that it's not OK for someone to point guns at someone else, even if it's unloaded.

It gets the point across quickly and succinctly.

I've never said it at a match.

Edited July 12, 2016 by bthoefer

[CHA-LEE]

Cha-lee, how would you incorporate PCC into a local level USPSA match from HQ? What would you like to see and what would you need as the MD of your match form HQ to send you to make sure PCC will sit well for you? lets work on resolutions to make the transition flawless.

Didn't I clearly point out what I would expect in my prior post?

Don't get me wrong. I love shooting USPSA handgun matches and think they produce the best practical shooting opportunities for the average Joe to attend. What I don't like is the total lack of support USPSA gives its existing clubs. I have been the MD/President of my club for over 5 years now. I have NEVER gotten any direct communication from USPSA to help my club do its thing. The way I see it we pay our fees to be graced with the privilege of calling our match a USPSA match and not much more.

If USPSA wants to mandate the deployment of a non-pistol division within a handgun match with virtually zero assistance on their end in helping the club do it successfully, then its not too hard to drop USPSA sanctioning and save our $1500 a year for props or other things that we would actually gain something from.

Some clubs feel comfortable with "Winging It" as they attempt to incorporate PCC into their HANDGUN matches. I am not comfortable with "Winging It". If USPSA wants to broaden their product line by deploying PCC then they need to step up to the plate and address the gaping hole that currently exists for the clubs actually tasked with supporting it. They can't simply throw this new division out there and then expect the clubs to magically figure it all out on their own. Sorry, I am all tapped out and am not going to do their job for them. If USPSA wants PCC to succeed then you guys need to be beating down USPSA's door with pitch forks and torches, not the clubs pushing back on a hunk of crap being dumped in their lap.

[Sarge]

The folks at Custer Sportsman's club did an excellent job specifying a separate start position for PCC shooters (every stage had a pink dot spray painted on a wall that the PCC shooters aimed at for the start position). .

That's against the rules as published no?

[Strick]

One, most guys shooting PCC were guys that shot pistols so that is unrealistic comment.

But we were sold on how this was in order to "grow the sport". It can't really be what many of us have said.......it will be the same guys but shooting something different. I hope that is part of the analysis when the time comes to look at this division. If it does not meet that main goal, bringing in new shooters, then what is the point.

[fishsticks]

The folks at Custer Sportsman's club did an excellent job specifying a separate start position for PCC shooters (every stage had a pink dot spray painted on a wall that the PCC shooters aimed at for the start position). .

That's against the rules as published no?

Appears to be ok? Where are you seeing it's not? PCC ready conditions is where I was looking and I don't see anything precluding what's described above.

[TaterHead]

Yet another long thread about PCC that proves one fact for certain. PCC is the most divisive change to hit USPSA in a long time, probably forever. There is a reason for that polarization of opinions. Everyone knows what that reason is. You just thought it without it being said.

[DocMedic]

One, most guys shooting PCC were guys that shot pistols so that is unrealistic comment.

But we were sold on how this was in order to "grow the sport". It can't really be what many of us have said.......it will be the same guys but shooting something different. I hope that is part of the analysis when the time comes to look at this division. If it does not meet that main goal, bringing in new shooters, then what is the point.

You're only seeing it from the inside. They're plenty of action shooting sports out there not just USPSA. But Outlaw Defensive pistol matches, Outlaw 3-Gun, IDPA, Icore, USCA, PRS, 3GN, etc etc. Bringing new shooters into USPSA doesn't just mean bringing people who never shot before. PCC wasn't dress in this pretty outfit and touted as a way for "tactical timmies" to get into competition with their micro red-dot costa pistols . PCC is a race division, no question ask but the beauty of it is you don't need that $3000 Pistol for you to believe to be competitive. A Kel-Tec Sub2000 can be just a competitive as a Combat Wilson AR-9, with the correct mags.

Edited July 13, 2016 by DocMedic

[StealthyBlagga]

I just put together a PCC Primer - I tried to distill all the new rules and guidelines into a simple, one-page poster, which we plan to display it at each stage when we run PCC at our USPSA Handgun match on Sunday. If anyone would like a copy of what I put together, contact me by EM or IM and I will be happy to send a copy over.

Can you post a copy - or even just the text - here?

DONE in my earlier post

Edited July 13, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Darqusoull13]

Thank you Stealthy. I'll have 3 new shooters coming out to shoot PCC at our next local club match. One friend who wants to get something for the house and practice with it but also have something his smaller statured wife can use. Also bringing two ladies that prefer "not rifles" (PCC) to pistols. It's hard to turn down minimal recoil and a red dot...

That's running 4 of us on 1 gun. I can bring them all out without much in the way of extra belt rigs, just long mags reloaded (hahaha, yeah right reloading) from the pocket.

If anyone from the POC wants to shoot one of my PCCs, you're more than welcome to as well. I have plenty of mags and ammo. Don't worry, don't ask don't tell for the other POC members!!!

[perttime]

I just put together a PCC Primer - I tried to distill all the new rules and guidelines into a simple, one-page poster, which we plan to display it at each stage when we run PCC at our USPSA Handgun match on Sunday. If anyone would like a copy of what I put together, contact me by EM or IM and I will be happy to send a copy over.

Can you post a copy - or even just the text - here?

DONE in my earlier post

Thanks!

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=96604

The places where I shoot don't allow casing and uncasing of rifles or carbines against a random piece of side berm. Here, you have to do it at either a Safety Area, or the start of COF under RO supervision. One of the ranges has simple wooden rifle racks which is very convenient.

Oh, USPSA has a Best Praactices document too: https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2016/PCC%20Best%20Practices.pdf

[teros135]

Didn't a wise man once say the purpose of a pistol was to fight your way back to a long gun? So, in essence, the pistol-proving nature of USPSA has followed the same path... back to a rifle.

/ducking for cover

That's not even a reasonable argument. Come on.

[Sarge]

The folks at Custer Sportsman's club did an excellent job specifying a separate start position for PCC shooters (every stage had a pink dot spray painted on a wall that the PCC shooters aimed at for the start position). .

That's against the rules as published no?

Appears to be ok? Where are you seeing it's not? PCC ready conditions is where I was looking and I don't see anything precluding what's described above.

I may be splitting hairs but it's not in the rule set, it's in the best practices memo that just says pointing down range. But then this is also in there later," Muzzle downrange means generally downrange, and does not have to be directly horizontal, pointing at the backstop, unless the WSB specifies it as such." so as I read this unless they specifically state something in the WSB all you have to do is point down range. I guess I'm thinking pointing at a purple spot every stage impedes free style? I look at the pasted part above to mean you could say, gun on table, muzzle touching door, etc. NOT just mandate a spot to aim at for every stage

[HS101]

The match I run (Atlanta Practical Shooters) has been allowing PCC for awhile. I handle start position in the following way: I set out an aim point for all "low ready" starts (12" piece of PVC pipe, painted purple, placed over a piece of rebar that has been driven into the ground). I have done the exact same thing in my 3 gun matches (Atlanta 3 Gun). Having the aim point takes out any possible "misunderstanding" of what "low ready" is. This is as much for the RO as it is for the competitor. Port Arms, muzzle on X, gun on table are all self explanatory.

We came up with the aim point because some people (ROs and competitors) would make up their own definition of Low Ready. Some would claim "45 degree angle" or "not on target" or "at berm". This led to uncertainty, and stages being handled differently by different squads. Having the aim point does not limit freestyle. It serves the same function as "hands on Xs" as opposed to "hands relaxed".

PCC is fun! And as a match director (in my 6th year as a USPSA Match Director), PCC does not affect my set up, or my stage design. It injects a little fun back into a sport where burn out does occur.

[Nightops]

The best practices, just defines a default/normal start position and only roughly does that.

Putting an start cone or aiming mark on the stage is an easy way to have competitive equity from squad to squad, and not have someone try to say that aimed at the bottom of the first target is "low ready"

[mreed911]

Didn't a wise man once say the purpose of a pistol was to fight your way back to a long gun? So, in essence, the pistol-proving nature of USPSA has followed the same path... back to a rifle.

/ducking for cover

That's not even a reasonable argument. Come on.

It wasn't intended to be. Glad you saw through that.

[ctay]

The match I run (Atlanta Practical Shooters) has been allowing PCC for awhile. I handle start position in the following way: I set out an aim point for all "low ready" starts (12" piece of PVC pipe, painted purple, placed over a piece of rebar that has been driven into the ground). I have done the exact same thing in my 3 gun matches (Atlanta 3 Gun). Having the aim point takes out any possible "misunderstanding" of what "low ready" is. This is as much for the RO as it is for the competitor. Port Arms, muzzle on X, gun on table are all self explanatory.

We came up with the aim point because some people (ROs and competitors) would make up their own definition of Low Ready. Some would claim "45 degree angle" or "not on target" or "at berm". This led to uncertainty, and stages being handled differently by different squads. Having the aim point does not limit freestyle. It serves the same function as "hands on Xs" as opposed to "hands relaxed".

PCC is fun! And as a match director (in my 6th year as a USPSA Match Director), PCC does not affect my set up, or my stage design. It injects a little fun back into a sport where burn out does occur.

Does the aim point reside within the shooting area? Seems like it could be a tripping hazard unless I misunderstand how it is used.

[JAFO]

The match I run (Atlanta Practical Shooters) has been allowing PCC for awhile. I handle start position in the following way: I set out an aim point for all "low ready" starts (12" piece of PVC pipe, painted purple, placed over a piece of rebar that has been driven into the ground). I have done the exact same thing in my 3 gun matches (Atlanta 3 Gun). Having the aim point takes out any possible "misunderstanding" of what "low ready" is. This is as much for the RO as it is for the competitor. Port Arms, muzzle on X, gun on table are all self explanatory.

We came up with the aim point because some people (ROs and competitors) would make up their own definition of Low Ready. Some would claim "45 degree angle" or "not on target" or "at berm". This led to uncertainty, and stages being handled differently by different squads. Having the aim point does not limit freestyle. It serves the same function as "hands on Xs" as opposed to "hands relaxed".

PCC is fun! And as a match director (in my 6th year as a USPSA Match Director), PCC does not affect my set up, or my stage design. It injects a little fun back into a sport where burn out does occur.

Does the aim point reside within the shooting area? Seems like it could be a tripping hazard unless I misunderstand how it is used.

I imagine it would be outside and function just like the .22 aiming point in Steel Challenge (for which we use small rebar "T" posts painted orange).

Edited July 13, 2016 by JAFO

[Rangerdug]

The match I run (Atlanta Practical Shooters) has been allowing PCC for awhile. I handle start position in the following way: I set out an aim point for all "low ready" starts (12" piece of PVC pipe, painted purple, placed over a piece of rebar that has been driven into the ground). I have done the exact same thing in my 3 gun matches (Atlanta 3 Gun). Having the aim point takes out any possible "misunderstanding" of what "low ready" is. This is as much for the RO as it is for the competitor. Port Arms, muzzle on X, gun on table are all self explanatory.

We came up with the aim point because some people (ROs and competitors) would make up their own definition of Low Ready. Some would claim "45 degree angle" or "not on target" or "at berm". This led to uncertainty, and stages being handled differently by different squads. Having the aim point does not limit freestyle. It serves the same function as "hands on Xs" as opposed to "hands relaxed".

PCC is fun! And as a match director (in my 6th year as a USPSA Match Director), PCC does not affect my set up, or my stage design. It injects a little fun back into a sport where burn out does occur.

Does the aim point reside within the shooting area? Seems like it could be a tripping hazard unless I misunderstand how it is used.

When you say tripping hazard? Do you mean like the PVC pipe, wood, or metal we use for fault lines and shooting boxes, or like props and activators?

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[Sarge]

The match I run (Atlanta Practical Shooters) has been allowing PCC for awhile. I handle start position in the following way: I set out an aim point for all "low ready" starts (12" piece of PVC pipe, painted purple, placed over a piece of rebar that has been driven into the ground). I have done the exact same thing in my 3 gun matches (Atlanta 3 Gun). Having the aim point takes out any possible "misunderstanding" of what "low ready" is. This is as much for the RO as it is for the competitor. Port Arms, muzzle on X, gun on table are all self explanatory.

We came up with the aim point because some people (ROs and competitors) would make up their own definition of Low Ready. Some would claim "45 degree angle" or "not on target" or "at berm". This led to uncertainty, and stages being handled differently by different squads. Having the aim point does not limit freestyle. It serves the same function as "hands on Xs" as opposed to "hands relaxed".

PCC is fun! And as a match director (in my 6th year as a USPSA Match Director), PCC does not affect my set up, or my stage design. It injects a little fun back into a sport where burn out does occur.

Does the aim point reside within the shooting area? Seems like it could be a tripping hazard unless I misunderstand how it is used.

When you say tripping hazard? Do you mean like the PVC pipe, wood, or metal we use for fault lines and shooting boxes, or like props and activators?

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NO, I think he means like a pole stuck in the ground in the middle of a shooting area.

[ctay]

When you say tripping hazard? Do you mean like the PVC pipe, wood, or metal we use for fault lines and shooting boxes, or like props and activators?

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I mean like a stick poking out if the ground within the shooting area. That would be nothing like fault lines, shooting boxes, or props and activators. That would be a tripping hazard.

[Sarge]

Muzzle downrange means generally downrange, and does not have to be directly horizontal, pointing at the backstop, unless the WSB specifies it as such.

Hands on marks equals carbine muzzle on a mark. The mark can be different from the hand position marks for safety/operability reasons.

Default/normal start position: Facing downrange, carbine held in both hands, stock on belt or shouldered, muzzle downrange. Fingers will be out of the trigger guard, and the safety must be applied if the carbine is loaded. This equates to either port arms or low ready. NO uprange starts while holding the carbine!

[Rangerdug]

When you say tripping hazard? Do you mean like the PVC pipe, wood, or metal we use for fault lines and shooting boxes, or like props and activators?

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I mean like a stick poking out if the ground within the shooting area. That would be nothing like fault lines, shooting boxes, or props and activators. That would be a tripping hazard.

So, it is ok to trip on the previously mentioned items, but now we are more worried about a thin vertical rod/ pipe?

Point is he points out a very easy solution to a lot of previous gripes. He unlike me is a MD, who has a lot of experience in the matter, but that isn't good enough. With every solution it seems some only find more to gripe about.

The reason I responded, is I happen to trip over a fault line on Sunday. It is what it is, there at any given match plenty of items to trip over, at major match we love the wazoo stages. Climbing, holding ropes, swings, even riding roller coaster carts. Yet the idea of a stake is crazy.

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