POP (PCC Opposition Party)

[aandabooks]

Yes. What about them?

My read didn't allow for "if" on chamber flag. Did I misread?

I didn't mean it like you could elect not to use a chamber flag. More like if you put a chamber flag then it can go in a cart uncased or with no chamber flag it has to be bagged.

[mreed911]

Yes. What about them?

My read didn't allow for "if" on chamber flag. Did I misread?

I didn't mean it like you could elect not to use a chamber flag. More like if you put a chamber flag then it can go in a cart uncased or with no chamber flag it has to be bagged.

That's what I mean - I thought a chamber flag was required, bag or no bag.

I'll have to re-read tonight.

[aandabooks]

We were bagging without a chamber flag. That is the way we have always done it with our .22 rifle side matches that we shoot during the winter months indoors.

[Sarge]

Yes. What about them?

My read didn't allow for "if" on chamber flag. Did I misread?

I didn't mean it like you could elect not to use a chamber flag. More like if you put a chamber flag then it can go in a cart uncased or with no chamber flag it has to be bagged.

That's what I mean - I thought a chamber flag was required, bag or no bag.

I'll have to re-read tonight.

Just read everything again and guess what? There is no clear answer.

Rules say you can carry from staging area to start location or from ending location to staging area WITHOUT a flag.

BUT the best practices memo says flag must be carried during COF so it can be inserted after final range commands before leaving stage.

Like I said, this first pass at rules and procedures needs looked at again.

[aandabooks]

Yes. What about them?

My read didn't allow for "if" on chamber flag. Did I misread?

I didn't mean it like you could elect not to use a chamber flag. More like if you put a chamber flag then it can go in a cart uncased or with no chamber flag it has to be bagged.

That's what I mean - I thought a chamber flag was required, bag or no bag.

I'll have to re-read tonight.

Just read everything again and guess what? There is no clear answer.

Rules say you can carry from staging area to start location or from ending location to staging area WITHOUT a flag.

BUT the best practices memo says flag must be carried during COF so it can be inserted after final range commands before leaving stage.

Like I said, this first pass at rules and procedures needs looked at again.

I was bagging and unbagging at the line. I forgot to bring a chamber flag with me. The guys who were using their carts put in the chamber flag and then carried them vertically to the cart and stored them. I didn't see where it says you have to have a chamber flag inserted if you're using a bag.

[Garrett]

Just read everything again and guess what? There is no clear answer.

Rules say you can carry from staging area to start location or from ending location to staging area WITHOUT a flag.

BUT the best practices memo says flag must be carried during COF so it can be inserted after final range commands before leaving stage.

Like I said, this first pass at rules and procedures needs looked at again.

Best Practices document is just that: (Suggested) Best Practices. It is not the official rule set.

I don't disagree that the rules need more looking at and will probably need a couple of revisions to get the bugs worked out.

[wgj3]

I'm glad we are getting all of these issues worked/aired out so quickly. All this thinking through every possible downside/challenge/safety issue is going to make getting a final, more comprehensive set of rules developed that much quicker and easier. You guys that run matches are great to share all the hurdles that come up in dealing with the new division and for making all the matches happen.

There is a silver-lining to be found in almost anything, POP included.

[MarkCO]

Absolutely no reason to change field courses to accommodate PCC. Anything that can be done with a pistol can be safely done with a carbine. Might it take more effort and concentration? Sure, but PCC only shoots against PCC and they also get to choose their gear. Designing courses to "accommodate" one division or another (other than what is already in the rules) is a fools errand and should not happen. If PCC changes the stages and game for those who want to shoot pistol, I believe that is wrong.

As for required reloads and strong weak, the BOD has accommodated that already, so the MD and stage designers do not have to worry about it at all.

The ONLY thing that MDs need to do is make sure their ROs understand flagged or bagged unless under the control of the RO. If flagged, sweeping is still a No-no.

It is not complicated unless you want it to be.

[JAFO]

Yes. What about them?

My read didn't allow for "if" on chamber flag. Did I misread?

I didn't mean it like you could elect not to use a chamber flag. More like if you put a chamber flag then it can go in a cart uncased or with no chamber flag it has to be bagged.

That's what I mean - I thought a chamber flag was required, bag or no bag.

I'll have to re-read tonight.

Just read everything again and guess what? There is no clear answer.

Rules say you can carry from staging area to start location or from ending location to staging area WITHOUT a flag.

BUT the best practices memo says flag must be carried during COF so it can be inserted after final range commands before leaving stage.

Like I said, this first pass at rules and procedures needs looked at again.

PCC 5.2.1.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

Emphasis mine. This would indicate that, aside from in an approved staging area or under the supervision of the RO, you have to use one, bagged or not.

[aandabooks]

Yes. What about them?

My read didn't allow for "if" on chamber flag. Did I misread?

I didn't mean it like you could elect not to use a chamber flag. More like if you put a chamber flag then it can go in a cart uncased or with no chamber flag it has to be bagged.

That's what I mean - I thought a chamber flag was required, bag or no bag.I'll have to re-read tonight.

Just read everything again and guess what? There is no clear answer.Rules say you can carry from staging area to start location or from ending location to staging area WITHOUT a flag.BUT the best practices memo says flag must be carried during COF so it can be inserted after final range commands before leaving stage.Like I said, this first pass at rules and procedures needs looked at again.

PCC 5.2.1.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.Emphasis mine. This would indicate that, aside from in an approved staging area or under the supervision of the RO, you have to use one, bagged or not.

If it is bagged until it reaches the line and then immediately put in a bag right after the ULSC, how would a chamber flag be "easily visible"? At all times the PCC is out of the bag it is under the direct supervision of the RO and therefore a chamber flag is not required by my reading.

[Rangerdug]

Absolutely no reason to change field courses to accommodate PCC. Anything that can be done with a pistol can be safely done with a carbine. Might it take more effort and concentration? Sure, but PCC only shoots against PCC and they also get to choose their gear. Designing courses to "accommodate" one division or another (other than what is already in the rules) is a fools errand and should not happen. If PCC changes the stages and game for those who want to shoot pistol, I believe that is wrong.

As for required reloads and strong weak, the BOD has accommodated that already, so the MD and stage designers do not have to worry about it at all.

The ONLY thing that MDs need to do is make sure their ROs understand flagged or bagged unless under the control of the RO. If flagged, sweeping is still a No-no.

It is not complicated unless you want it to be.

Well said

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MarkCO]

Yes. What about them?

My read didn't allow for "if" on chamber flag. Did I misread?

I didn't mean it like you could elect not to use a chamber flag. More like if you put a chamber flag then it can go in a cart uncased or with no chamber flag it has to be bagged.

That's what I mean - I thought a chamber flag was required, bag or no bag.I'll have to re-read tonight.

Just read everything again and guess what? There is no clear answer.Rules say you can carry from staging area to start location or from ending location to staging area WITHOUT a flag.BUT the best practices memo says flag must be carried during COF so it can be inserted after final range commands before leaving stage.Like I said, this first pass at rules and procedures needs looked at again.

PCC 5.2.1.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.Emphasis mine. This would indicate that, aside from in an approved staging area or under the supervision of the RO, you have to use one, bagged or not.

If it is bagged until it reaches the line and then immediately put in a bag right after the ULSC, how would a chamber flag be "easily visible"? At all times the PCC is out of the bag it is under the direct supervision of the RO and therefore a chamber flag is not required by my reading.

I just had a discussion with a BOD. It is acceptable to take a bagged PCC to the line, make ready and then after ULASC, to bag the PCC...so no chamber flag is required in that case. If a PCC is not bagged, it must be flagged except when under the direction of the RO. So, you hear..."Range is clear" and walk back to your bag with a cleared gun and no chamber flag...that is not allowed. Before the RO calls "Range is clear." they should make you bag or flag, just like an RO says "holster". I can see some ROs new to long guns getting flustered, so if you shoot PCC, make it easy for them, carry a chamber flag or have a resetter bring up the bag.

In the interest of time, chamber flags are likely more expedient for most cases.

Carry on.

[JAFO]

I just had a discussion with a BOD. It is acceptable to take a bagged PCC to the line, make ready and then after ULASC, to bag the PCC...so no chamber flag is required in that case. If a PCC is not bagged, it must be flagged except when under the direction of the RO. So, you hear..."Range is clear" and walk back to your bag with a cleared gun and no chamber flag...that is not allowed. Before the RO calls "Range is clear." they should make you bag or flag, just like an RO says "holster". I can see some ROs new to long guns getting flustered, so if you shoot PCC, make it easy for them, carry a chamber flag or have a resetter bring up the bag.

In the interest of time, chamber flags are likely more expedient for most cases.

Carry on.

Thanks, Mark.

[Patrick Scott]

Here is a question, can I show up to a match with a flagged PCC in a case or not in a case, in my vehicle and remove PCC from vehicle in the parking lot and strap it to my cart without being under supervision or at a safety area? That is how I am reading PCC 5.2.1.2 I just want to be sure, but that is going to be hard to do vertically.

[MarkCO]

Here is a question, can I show up to a match with a flagged PCC in a case or not in a case, in my vehicle and remove PCC from vehicle in the parking lot and strap it to my cart without being under supervision or at a safety area? That is how I am reading PCC 5.2.1.2 I just want to be sure, but that is going to be hard to do vertically.

Yes. It has to be cased or flagged at all times except when under the control of an RO.

[Patrick Scott]

Here is a question, can I show up to a match with a flagged PCC in a case or not in a case, in my vehicle and remove PCC from vehicle in the parking lot and strap it to my cart without being under supervision or at a safety area? That is how I am reading PCC 5.2.1.2 I just want to be sure, but that is going to be hard to do vertically.

Yes. It has to be cased or flagged at all times except when under the control of an RO.

Im being uber nit picky here just to cover the bases, at that moment I grab(with my hands) an un-cased(but flagged) PCC which which is laying my my vehicle horizontally, is that a problem? The reason I ask these questions is that my club is about to start running PCC and I want to be able to answer any questions I can think of. Thanks

[MarkCO]

As long as you do not sweep anything, that is okay. Realize the best practices are not the rules, but recomendations to help folks get through the slight differences.

[BSeevers]

So why can I not take a pistol with a chamber flag and do the same thing?

[MarkCO]

So why can I not take a pistol with a chamber flag and do the same thing?

^^^Why we can't have nice things.

[ATLDave]

^^^ This is my biggest concern with PPC. From any angle where I can see someone's pistol, I can see whether it is holstered or not. Flags are only visible from certain angles. And making "sweeping" calls on someone who isn't the shooter and isn't being RO'd is going to cause LOTS of arguments.

IMO, the rule should be all-bagged until at the line. That would be consistent with how we treat handguns. Why would longarms be any different?

[aandabooks]

^^^ This is my biggest concern with PPC. From any angle where I can see someone's pistol, I can see whether it is holstered or not. Flags are only visible from certain angles. And making "sweeping" calls on someone who isn't the shooter and isn't being RO'd is going to cause LOTS of arguments.

IMO, the rule should be all-bagged until at the line. That would be consistent with how we treat handguns. Why would longarms be any different?

I would also prefer the bagged method but by going with the chamber flag protocol I think they are trying to accomplish two things. 1. Is to speed things up and 2. is to appeal to the 3 gun crowd who routinely have their long guns out with chamber flags.

[Patrick Scott]

^^^ This is my biggest concern with PPC. From any angle where I can see someone's pistol, I can see whether it is holstered or not. Flags are only visible from certain angles. And making "sweeping" calls on someone who isn't the shooter and isn't being RO'd is going to cause LOTS of arguments.

IMO, the rule should be all-bagged until at the line. That would be consistent with how we treat handguns. Why would longarms be any different?

Hasn't the same system been in use for a while in other shooting sports without issues?

[Sarge]

^^^ This is my biggest concern with PPC. From any angle where I can see someone's pistol, I can see whether it is holstered or not. Flags are only visible from certain angles. And making "sweeping" calls on someone who isn't the shooter and isn't being RO'd is going to cause LOTS of arguments.

IMO, the rule should be all-bagged until at the line. That would be consistent with how we treat handguns. Why would longarms be any different?

Hasn't the same system been in use for a while in other shooting sports without issues?

I'm sure it has. But in all fairness it is alien to USPSA. It will take time to figure out whether PCC will be a good fit or not. I bought one to shoot and it looks like a ton of fun. I fully support it BUT ONLY if it is a good fit to the primary game of USPSA. Even if traditional USPSA shooters in mass feel it is not a good fit I think dropping it should be considered

[DocMedic]

"USPSA Shooter in Mass..."

I heard this morning that we have 16k members in USPSA. The people in this forum DO NOT make the Mass on either side, but I will tell you what my experience has been with PCC since the incarnation of when I started the thread back in December / January. At the CLUB level since June it has been generally well accepted in the view of the shooters who have squadded with PCC shooters. When I have Personally shot PCC in USPSA I have many inquires from A to D ranked shooters asking me on how will PCC work and the "ohh and aww" factor. For the past 4 years since I've helped run the Regional steel challenge our PCC attendance has steadily increased despite that at the time there was no talks to include PCC into USPSA. At the last Wednesday Night steel challenge match, which only includes 4 stages, we seen our Highest attendance for PCC of 5 shooters. 4 names I did not recognize (I did not shoot)

The opposition of PCC in my area are also some of the most Vocal here on ENO's, While great shooters they are one gun / one sport action discipline shooters.(By this I mean they do not shoot any other shooting discipline seriously to be a competitor AND do not venture in other Division in USPSA as a serious competitor in that division) Not one 3gunner that also shoot USPSA on a regular bases is against PCC in USPSA.

I have counted at least 10 unique PCC shooters that have shot USPSA in the past month of June. We have none for July as the only match we had didn't allow PCC, and ironically started this very thread. Unfortunately are PCC attendance will be lite this week also as many of us "PCC" shooters will be shooting the Colorado 3Gun Championships, But we will have 2 USPSA matches this weekend that will allow PCC.

Doug (aka Rangerdug) and I, talk on a weekly bases about PCC in USPSA and I assure you that POP isn't fictitious, Doug likes to be more of the head front guy while I'm working in the background to make deals to allow PCC get started here in our state. To give it a fair unbiased chance.

Edited July 8, 2016 by DocMedic

[pkm]

I have counted at least 10 unique PCC shooters that have shot USPSA in the past month of June. We have none for July as the only match we had didn't allow PCC, and ironically started this very thread. Unfortunately are PCC attendance will be lite this week also as many of us "PCC" shooters will be shooting the Colorado 3Gun Championships, But we will have 2 USPSA matches this weekend that will allow PCC.

Doug (aka Rangerdug) and I, talk on a weekly bases about PCC in USPSA and I assure you that POP isn't fictitious, Doug likes to be more of the head front guy while I'm working in the background to make deals to allow PCC get started here in our state. To give it a fair unbiased chance.

We have three or four clubs in the front range that allow PCC so I would definitely say it has made it's "start" in Colorado. As to your comment about and I am paraphrasing (No 3-gunner who shoots USPSA is against PCC) it isn't true. Ok, I may have be a "never was" 3-gunner as I haven't shot it in over a year and never was very good at it, but I am not a fan of PCC. With that being said even though I am the MD for my USPSA club it's not my way or the highway at our club. In talking with several of our board members they said they would like to have PCC so now we offer PCC. Would I have changed my mind for a couple of random shooters who may have wanted to come to the match? Nope, sure wouldn't have and wouldn't have thought twice about it. However, when you have people that continually give their own time and money to make sure a match runs and runs well they should be listened to and were. Which is why threads like this get on my last nerve.. I usually try and stay away from Enos and all it's negativity but when people who don't volunteer at these matches think they can have some opinion as to what is going to happen at them, it really irritates me. DocMedic, that comment is not directed at you as I know you have volunteered and spent many of Saturdays and Sundays helping setup and RO matches and if we had more people who volunteer instead of demanded their every desire we would be a lot better off in our neck of the woods.