POP (PCC Opposition Party)

[Sarge]

When you say tripping hazard? Do you mean like the PVC pipe, wood, or metal we use for fault lines and shooting boxes, or like props and activators?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean like a stick poking out if the ground within the shooting area. That would be nothing like fault lines, shooting boxes, or props and activators. That would be a tripping hazard.

So, it is ok to trip on the previously mentioned items, but now we are more worried about a thin vertical rod/ pipe?

Point is he points out a very easy solution to a lot of previous gripes. He unlike me is a MD, who has a lot of experience in the matter, but that isn't good enough. With every solution it seems some only find more to gripe about.

The reason I responded, is I happen to trip over a fault line on Sunday. It is what it is, there at any given match plenty of items to trip over, at major match we love the wazoo stages. Climbing, holding ropes, swings, even riding roller coaster carts. Yet the idea of a stake is crazy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tripping over a fault line is your fault. Running into a rod sticking out of the ground is the matches fault.

Go to a major match stage, let's say the one with a roller coaster, and drive rebar into the ground in the center of the shooting area during stage set up. Run that past the RM and see what he says about it and get back to us.

[ctay]

When you say tripping hazard? Do you mean like the PVC pipe, wood, or metal we use for fault lines and shooting boxes, or like props and activators?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean like a stick poking out if the ground within the shooting area. That would be nothing like fault lines, shooting boxes, or props and activators. That would be a tripping hazard.

So, it is ok to trip on the previously mentioned items, but now we are more worried about a thin vertical rod/ pipe?

Point is he points out a very easy solution to a lot of previous gripes. He unlike me is a MD, who has a lot of experience in the matter, but that isn't good enough. With every solution it seems some only find more to gripe about.

The reason I responded, is I happen to trip over a fault line on Sunday. It is what it is, there at any given match plenty of items to trip over, at major match we love the wazoo stages. Climbing, holding ropes, swings, even riding roller coaster carts. Yet the idea of a stake is crazy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you don't understand that a rod sticking out of the ground in the middle of the stage is different than a fault line I can't help you.

[BritinUSA]

[perttime]

Do you always specify which way a pistol shooting competitor must point their hips before the beep?

[Nightops]

Why would you think an MD would stick an aiming point cone/rod in the middle of the shooting area? You stick it next to the leg of a wall or something where nobody could get there feet to without tripping or running through the wall Kool-aid man style. Or set one on each side berm far enough back that the shooter still has to transition to get to targets, but not breaking the 180.

If figuring out how to start a shooter is just too hard, then is is some pretty thin straws to be grasping at for not offering PCC.

[Sarge]

When you say tripping hazard? Do you mean like the PVC pipe, wood, or metal we use for fault lines and shooting boxes, or like props and activators?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean like a stick poking out if the ground within the shooting area. That would be nothing like fault lines, shooting boxes, or props and activators. That would be a tripping hazard.

So, it is ok to trip on the previously mentioned items, but now we are more worried about a thin vertical rod/ pipe?

Point is he points out a very easy solution to a lot of previous gripes. He unlike me is a MD, who has a lot of experience in the matter, but that isn't good enough. With every solution it seems some only find more to gripe about.

The reason I responded, is I happen to trip over a fault line on Sunday. It is what it is, there at any given match plenty of items to trip over, at major match we love the wazoo stages. Climbing, holding ropes, swings, even riding roller coaster carts. Yet the idea of a stake is crazy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you don't understand that a rod sticking out of the ground in the middle of the stage is different than a fault line I can't help you.

^^^^^^

[HS101]

The match I run (Atlanta Practical Shooters) has been allowing PCC for awhile. I handle start position in the following way: I set out an aim point for all "low ready" starts (12" piece of PVC pipe, painted purple, placed over a piece of rebar that has been driven into the ground). I have done the exact same thing in my 3 gun matches (Atlanta 3 Gun). Having the aim point takes out any possible "misunderstanding" of what "low ready" is. This is as much for the RO as it is for the competitor. Port Arms, muzzle on X, gun on table are all self explanatory.

We came up with the aim point because some people (ROs and competitors) would make up their own definition of Low Ready. Some would claim "45 degree angle" or "not on target" or "at berm". This led to uncertainty, and stages being handled differently by different squads. Having the aim point does not limit freestyle. It serves the same function as "hands on Xs" as opposed to "hands relaxed".

PCC is fun! And as a match director (in my 6th year as a USPSA Match Director), PCC does not affect my set up, or my stage design. It injects a little fun back into a sport where burn out does occur.

Does the aim point reside within the shooting area? Seems like it could be a tripping hazard unless I misunderstand how it is used.

No. It is outside of the shooting area. I also place it where it is in a neutral position that is fair for both Left and Right handed shooters....

Edited July 14, 2016 by HS101

[Jason Klein]

Once I sorted through the arguments for and against, I can safely say that I feel it SHOULD be allowed. But, for long term feasibility, I think that RO's should be trained on clearing long rifles. There is already an approved rule set for multigun, so a simple copy/paste of those parameters for rifle into the handgun handbook for PCC would be a piece of cake.

I do think that USPSA HQ kind of hamstringed those for PCC by the "rules" they sent out. Kind of hap-hazard to me, but with good intent.

I like the idea of using an "aiming point" outside the shooting area for PCC's to start at. But, if they limited the starting positions to either low ready or port arms, that would be even easier. Port arms=butt of PCC on belt, muzzle at eye level. Low ready=PCC shouldered, muzzle below belt. Seems simple as that is what we do in multigun.

I see those in opposition to PCC the same that supported the new "carry optics" division. It is an open gun, why do we need one more division? The simple answer: to get more people shooting safely.

[Nightops]

The only RO command that changes is that "Holster" now becomes "Insert chamber flag", not a tremendous amount of training required for that.

A clear but detailed definition of "low ready" and "port arms" in the rulebook would be a great idea, but no reason to limit to just those 2 start positions. You can still do table starts, aiming at a mark, muzzle touching mark, and plenty others.

[polymerfeelsweirdman]

Solution to all uspsa issues:

-remove revolver

-change name of single stack to classic

-allow revolvers to do classic with 9mm/.357 major

-allow hi powers in classic with 10 round minor

-remove limited 10

-fix poppers

[blaster113]

I know the majority of USPSA could give a shit about Limited 10, but for us stuck in 10 round states/jurisdictions it IS a big deal. In fact we also do Open-10 here.

Yes, I know the retort will be "well sucks to be you" haha

[AWLAZS]

Blaster when you come to nationals do you shoot l10?

[blaster113]

I prefer to shoot Limited at major matches, though I've shot Open a couple of times. Its awesome being able to run around with 20 round mags. I've shot L10 in two majors; one Nationals and an Area 1. Also shot Production at an Area 1. I won't be shooting L10/Production at a major for the foreseeable future. Limited is too much fun

[AWLAZS]

So why is l 10 important if you don't shoot it when you travel?

[blaster113]

L10 is important because it gives us a recognized division that's in line with our stupid state law, we can be classified in and shoot anywhere in the country in this division if we chose too since we are stuck with 10 rnd mags. Same reason I am against 15 round Production magazines. The 10 round jurisdictions like us get screwed.

If I win an L10 or Production Nationals slot at a match of course I'm going to take it, but my favorite division is Limited. Hawaii shooters have shot L10 at a few Nationals.

With all of the shootings across the nation I foresee more jurisdictions adopting handgun magazine limits, so L10 may become more relevant in the future. I understand two sides of the argument.

Edited July 30, 2016 by blaster113

[polymerfeelsweirdman]

OK I would understand if you were trying to compare between ban states and non ban states for classification but classifiers aren't really affected. If all matches in ban states were limited to 10 rounds in each division there would be no difference. And plus running a 2011 to slide lock is lame

[L3324temp]

If you live in a ban state there is no easy way to get non ban mags to an out of state match. It can be managed if your only attending a few major matches a year, but if you hitting several local matches a month out of state it can get really expensive.

Edited July 30, 2016 by L3324temp

[bthoefer]

I know the majority of USPSA could give a shit about Limited 10, but for us stuck in 10 round states/jurisdictions it IS a big deal. In fact we also do Open-10 here.

Yes, I know the retort will be "well sucks to be you" haha

Actually, those of you stuck in 10 round states have even less use use for Lim10 than those of us in free states.

The MD can limit all divisions to legal capacity in those states. Open becomes Open 10, Limited becomes Limited 10, Limited 10 becomes redundant.

[Sarge]

I know the majority of USPSA could give a shit about Limited 10, but for us stuck in 10 round states/jurisdictions it IS a big deal. In fact we also do Open-10 here.

Yes, I know the retort will be "well sucks to be you" haha

Actually, those of you stuck in 10 round states have even less use use for Lim10 than those of us in free states.

The MD can limit all divisions to legal capacity in those states. Open becomes Open 10, Limited becomes Limited 10, Limited 10 becomes redundant.

True

[PPGMD]

I know the majority of USPSA could give a shit about Limited 10, but for us stuck in 10 round states/jurisdictions it IS a big deal. In fact we also do Open-10 here.

Yes, I know the retort will be "well sucks to be you" haha

Actually, those of you stuck in 10 round states have even less use use for Lim10 than those of us in free states.

The MD can limit all divisions to legal capacity in those states. Open becomes Open 10, Limited becomes Limited 10, Limited 10 becomes redundant.

Except the classifications will not be valid, because when the same classifier is shot in a state without limits they can sometimes do it without a reload. The same reason they had to rewrite a bunch of classifiers due to the 8 round minor guns for revolver.

[Nik Habicht]

This has drifted far enough......