POP (PCC Opposition Party)

[StealthyBlagga]

Most USPSA match directors are likely not very familiar with the needs and nuances of PCC, particularly if they do not personally already shoot other practical long gun events (like 3-Gun) and/or have not followed this discussion in the Enos and USPSA forums. For this reason, last week I sent the email below to all of the USPSA handgun match directors at my home range:

Gentlemen

In case you have not heard, the USPSA Board of Directors has approved a new provisional Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) division for USPSA handgun matches. The effective date for this new division is tomorrow – July 1st.

USPSA and DNROI have been working diligently in recent months to adapt the handgun rule book and classifiers to accommodate the unique needs of PCC, including issues such as gun handling, strong hand/weak hand, and start positions. The relevant documents – rules addendum, PCC appendix and updated classifiers are attached for your review.

As with all USPSA divisions, recognition of any particular division is at the discretion of the Match Director. Given the popularity of our 3-Gun and [other long gun] matches [at our range], my expectation is that many of our regular customers will want to run their PCCs from time to time, and so I hope you will feel comfortable allowing this new division to be part of your matches. If so, please ensure [the stats/registration person] knows so [they] can include the division for PractiScore signup.

As with any new divisions or rule changes, there is likely to be some adjustment period. For example, although the new safety rules will be quite familiar to those of us who participate in 3-Gun, many of our handgun-only ROs may need their hands held through the initial phase of PCC implementation. Likewise, you may wish to add PCC-specific start positions to your written stage briefings when it makes sense (for example, starts facing uprange are never OK while holding a PCC). However, I hope you will not feel the need to make any more changes to your normal stage designs than absolutely necessary – nobody wants the well established character of USPSA handgun matches to be diminished because of PCC.

If I can provide any help or support as you work through this process, please don’t hesitate to ask. I have followed the birth of this new division from the beginning, so I should be able to answer most questions you have. [The 3-Gun match director] has a great 3-Gun “new shooter orientation” that we could perhaps adapt into a PCC safety course if you think this would be helpful. Let us know if there is anything at all we can do to make this new division a success at your matches.

Thanks for all your hard work – I look forward to seeing you on the range with my PCC.

MY ADVICE: If you want to have PCC included in your local matches, I suggest you proactively reach out to your MDs like I did. Help them see that there is local demand for this division, spoon feed them the new rules addenda, and offer to help with the transition. Make it easier for them to include PCC than to exclude it.

Remember, we PCCers are GUESTS at handgun matches, competing at the sole discretion of the MD. If we behave badly, they are entirely within their rights to tell us to pound sand. Please do your best to be reasonable and respectful as we work through this transition, and before we all know it we will be like part of the family.

Edited July 5, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Xanathar]

I am a match director – and am one of those not offering PCC.

Stage design absolutely must take into account PCC. I need to think about their make ready location. I need to think of their start position. I need to think about forced strong/weak hand shots. I need to think about where/why/when they will reload. I need to make sure any ports/walls/fault lines work for the longer gun. I need to think more about props. I need to think about all of the above for both an experienced shooter and a brand new shooter who has never shot a match before.

Outside of the stages, I now have to worry about a slightly different set of rules because *PCC*. You can now handle a gun, only if it’s PCC (not flagged just means an escorted trip to a safe location). You can’t point it at anyone even if flagged – what if it’s in a cart? You can only bag/unbag against a berm or else you are DQed – but only for PCC, not allowed for a handgun. Do I now need fault lines against berms for this? Is placing off and on a cart the same as bagging?

I am a volunteer, the matches already sell out quickly with pistol shooters, and all of the above means more work for me. If someone else would like to take over as MD so they can start offering PCC I will gladly hand over the program.

[StealthyBlagga]

I am a match director – and am one of those not offering PCC.

Stage design absolutely must take into account PCC. I need to think about their make ready location. I need to think of their start position. I need to think about forced strong/weak hand shots. I need to think about where/why/when they will reload. I need to make sure any ports/walls/fault lines work for the longer gun. I need to think more about props. I need to think about all of the above for both an experienced shooter and a brand new shooter who has never shot a match before.

Outside of the stages, I now have to worry about a slightly different set of rules because *PCC*. You can now handle a gun, only if it’s PCC (not flagged just means an escorted trip to a safe location). You can’t point it at anyone even if flagged – what if it’s in a cart? You can only bag/unbag against a berm or else you are DQed – but only for PCC, not allowed for a handgun. Do I now need fault lines against berms for this? Is placing off and on a cart the same as bagging?

I am a volunteer, the matches already sell out quickly with pistol shooters, and all of the above means more work for me. If someone else would like to take over as MD so they can start offering PCC I will gladly hand over the program.

Everything you say has validity. If there is local enthusiasm for PCC, I hope one of those folks will approach you and offer to help share the workload.

[Thomas H]

I am a match director and am one of those not offering PCC.

Stage design absolutely must take into account PCC. I need to think about their make ready location.

Why?

I need to think of their start position.

True. This will take a whole 'nother line in the WSB.

I need to think about forced strong/weak hand shots.

I need to think about where/why/when they will reload.

Why SH and WH? That's the PCC shooter's problem.

And for reloading....why? I mean, seriously? How will this be different than any Open gun, other than most PCC shooters will have to reload even less?

I need to make sure any ports/walls/fault lines work for the longer gun.

I need to think more about props.

Why? What do you mean? Are your walls placed so there is less than 24" of space between them?

I need to think about all of the above for both an experienced shooter and a brand new shooter who has never shot a match before.

This is normal for every division. This shouldn't be any sort of change for a match director.

Outside of the stages, I now have to worry about a slightly different set of rules because *PCC*.

Considering the differences are incredibly minor, I'm not really seeing much of a problem.

You can now handle a gun, only if its PCC (not flagged just means an escorted trip to a safe location).

So, flagged carbines carried vertically between stages....okay. Anything else, if not bagged or in a cart: Not okay. There you go. That wasn't difficult.

You cant point it at anyone even if flagged what if its in a cart?

That's a good question, and about the only thing here I think is an issue. The rule seems....unclear on this one. Personally, if someone puts a gun in a cart and then turns the cart so it is pointing at me, it isn't going to go well for them, because PCC 10.5.2.1 doesn't make any allowances for "in a cart."

You can only bag/unbag against a berm or else you are DQed but only for PCC, not allowed for a handgun.

And only allowed IF the MD has specifically allowed a set staging area, so this isn't a random thing. So if you don't want a staging area, don't have one.

Do I now need fault lines against berms for this? Is placing off and on a cart the same as bagging?

No. Yes.

Truthfully, I'm really not sure where the extra work is going to be an issue. An additional line in the WSB, a decision about staging areas, and a question to DNROI about sweeping while in a cart seems to be about it, really.

Here's the thing: Lots of people have already shot PCC in matches. And....are we hearing about issues, events, or problems regarding them? No?

[motosapiens]

Here's the thing: Lots of people have already shot PCC in matches. And....are we hearing about issues, events, or problems regarding them? No?

you sure?

We had a squad full of pcc shooters at our match on saturday. I didn't really observe them but I noticed the top placed pcc guy was in 4th overall, about where he normally places with his production gun. I also noticed that the pcc squad was still on their next to last stage after the rest of us had finished the match and taken everything else down and put it away. The conclusions I can draw from this are:

a) pcc is no advantage over an open or limited gun unless the stages are specifically designed for PCC.

pcc shooters are slow, so I should avoid squadding with them or in the squads immediately behind them.\

I also heard at least 1 observer mention that he saw numerous 180 breaks that were not called, for whatever reason. From this I can conclude that pcc is inherently unsafe.

I would say that the burden of making pcc work should fall on those who give a crap about it. That's what is going on in our local matches. Expecting people who don't give a crap about pcc to do *anything* to make it not fail is unreasonable imho. If you want pcc in your local matches, offer to proof all the stages and explain why they are safe and reasonable without redesigning them, and then tweak the wsb's to fit. Don't put that on someone who doesn't care and is already busy.

Edited July 5, 2016 by motosapiens

[ctay]

I need to think of their start position.

True. This will take a whole 'nother line in the WSB.

When you aren't the one that has to do the work it probably does sound easy . When you have 1000 other things to worry about adding even a minor 1001 is not necessarily a piece of cake.

I need to think about forced strong/weak hand shots.

I need to think about where/why/when they will reload.

Why SH and WH? That's the PCC shooter's problem.

As an MD you can't really just say that's their problem and forget about it. I have to make sure that the stage is safe for everyone shooting it and that I'm not creating challenges that not everyone can complete. I have to think about how each division will attempt the stage and be sure I am not creating an issue. Throwing PCC into the mix adds another division and an oddball at that. There will likely not be many real issues but I can't ignore them.

PCC is fun and can be integrated safely. But there are trade offs and pretending that an MD is being unreasonable is a quick way to kill it before it gets moving.

[pkm]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doug, at this point you have probably spent more time writing about PCC haters in this thread than shooting USPSA in the last few months. Before you cast judgment on a bunch of volunteers doing a service to the shooting community maybe you should get to a few more matches and interact with a few more folks at those clubs.. You may be surprised at why they aren't offering it they in fact aren't.

[Ray_Z]

Sorry, I'm one of those that care for using rifles in a pistol match. And how soon are we going to have to change the stages to make them challenging for those that shoot the long guns? Classifiers? You may say that that won't happen, but how are we going to make the new members happy?

[teros135]

I am a match director and am one of those not offering PCC.

Stage design absolutely must take into account PCC. I need to think about their make ready location.

Why?

I need to think of their start position.

True. This will take a whole 'nother line in the WSB.

I need to think about forced strong/weak hand shots.

I need to think about where/why/when they will reload.

Why SH and WH? That's the PCC shooter's problem.

And for reloading....why? I mean, seriously? How will this be different than any Open gun, other than most PCC shooters will have to reload even less?

I need to make sure any ports/walls/fault lines work for the longer gun.

I need to think more about props.

Why? What do you mean? Are your walls placed so there is less than 24" of space between them?

I need to think about all of the above for both an experienced shooter and a brand new shooter who has never shot a match before.

This is normal for every division. This shouldn't be any sort of change for a match director.

Outside of the stages, I now have to worry about a slightly different set of rules because *PCC*.

Considering the differences are incredibly minor, I'm not really seeing much of a problem.

You can now handle a gun, only if its PCC (not flagged just means an escorted trip to a safe location).

So, flagged carbines carried vertically between stages....okay. Anything else, if not bagged or in a cart: Not okay. There you go. That wasn't difficult.

You cant point it at anyone even if flagged what if its in a cart?

That's a good question, and about the only thing here I think is an issue. The rule seems....unclear on this one. Personally, if someone puts a gun in a cart and then turns the cart so it is pointing at me, it isn't going to go well for them, because PCC 10.5.2.1 doesn't make any allowances for "in a cart."

You can only bag/unbag against a berm or else you are DQed but only for PCC, not allowed for a handgun.

And only allowed IF the MD has specifically allowed a set staging area, so this isn't a random thing. So if you don't want a staging area, don't have one.

Do I now need fault lines against berms for this? Is placing off and on a cart the same as bagging?

No. Yes.

Truthfully, I'm really not sure where the extra work is going to be an issue. An additional line in the WSB, a decision about staging areas, and a question to DNROI about sweeping while in a cart seems to be about it, really.

Here's the thing: Lots of people have already shot PCC in matches. And....are we hearing about issues, events, or problems regarding them? No?

You've done a brilliant job of picking apart Xanathar's thoughtfully-written post. I'm sure he sees the light and will be offering PCC very soon.

[Rangerdug]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doug, at this point you have probably spent more time writing about PCC haters in this thread than shooting USPSA in the last few months. Before you cast judgment on a bunch of volunteers doing a service to the shooting community maybe you should get to a few more matches and interact with a few more folks at those clubs.. You may be surprised at why they aren't offering it they in fact aren't.

So Price, can I call you Price? In your opinion, how many matches do I need to attend to have an opinion? Obviously, Sunday didn't count. Maybe, Ramah? Ha!!! How about Centennial? Nope!

[GrumpyOne]

First (and last) warning...If you want this thread to stay open, I suggest that the attitudes get lost and that the civility is brought back.

GrumpyOne BE Forums Moderator

[uod]

We had a squad full of pcc shooters at our match on saturday. I didn't really observe them but I noticed the top placed pcc guy was in 4th overall, about where he normally places with his production gun. I also noticed that the pcc squad was still on their next to last stage after the rest of us had finished the match and taken everything else down and put it away. The conclusions I can draw from this are:

a) pcc is no advantage over an open or limited gun unless the stages are specifically designed for PCC.

pcc shooters are slow, so I should avoid squadding with them or in the squads immediately behind them.\

We had the exact opposite experience. We had a squad of 10 PCC shooters, and that squad ran a stage start to finish as fast or faster than all other squads.

[Thomas H]

(Regarding start position:)

When you aren't the one that has to do the work it probably does sound easy . When you have 1000 other things to worry about adding even a minor 1001 is not necessarily a piece of cake.

Well, I design stages monthly, and mentor other people designing stages, so, I do understand. And I still don't see how this is a big deal. (I do think it will be much easier if we get a singular default start position for PCC, though.)

We actually have a form that we give our stage designers (which they can also download from our club website if they want to do it in advance) that basically give them spots to fill in for the specific requirements of the stage. I'm thinking in our case we will add a line under "start position" for "PCC start position" and if we get a singular default from DNROI (which I really hope happens) that'll make it even easier.

As an MD you can't really just say that's their problem and forget about it. I have to make sure that the stage is safe for everyone shooting it and that I'm not creating challenges that not everyone can complete. I have to think about how each division will attempt the stage and be sure I am not creating an issue. Throwing PCC into the mix adds another division and an oddball at that. There will likely not be many real issues but I can't ignore them.

I agree---but "forced strong/weak hand shots" just aren't going to be that much different for PCC than for pistol. (As has been mentioned a couple of times by people who are already shooting PCC.)

And where they will reload...like I said, many PCCers won't have to reload at all, and those that do will be doing it approximately as often as an Open gun.

So I agree---a good MD needs to keep all divisions in mind. My point is simply that for this set of issues, PCC isn't that different from any of the others. I mean, heck, revolver reloads (with the up/down thing) are more dangerous than PCC reloads.

PCC is fun and can be integrated safely. But there are trade offs and pretending that an MD is being unreasonable is a quick way to kill it before it gets moving.

True. You'll note many of my responses were all about "why"? (I'll note I wasn't pretending---I was wondering why such a big deal was being made of things that seem minor issues, hence my asking what made them anything other than minor issues.)

I've seen a lot of people in various threads say "things 1, 2, and 3 will be all sorts of problems!" but when it came down to actual specifics, most people have found that things 1, 2, and 3 aren't actually problems, and many of the people complaining couldn't actually say why those things were actual problems. Sometimes they could, and from that, good discussion can be had to find solutions. But....many weren't.

Which is why I kept asking "why" instead of merely saying "nuh-uh, it won't!" (And if I disagreed, I gave a specific reason why.)

If someone can articulate a specific issue, then other people can discuss it and perhaps find a good answer, or maybe someone else has already had that issue and came up with a good answer they could share. And also perhaps people who have already been doing this have found that those AREN'T actually issues.

(Moto, for example, (when I said people don't seem to be actually having problems), reiterated his post in which he made a bunch of unsupported conclusions based on something he didn't see, and noted that apparently his ROs aren't doing their job. That isn't really the type of "problems" that actually gives us anything to discuss, and solve.)

Listing that there are "things to think about" just doesn't seem to me to be anything other than an acknowledgement of the fact that an MD need to bear things in mind---which isn't the same thing as saying "this is going to be an issue." Asking about specific issues, on the other hand, means that often discussions can be had, and solutions can be found.

Looking through the threads, how many times were there comments about "this won't work," "rifles don't belong in pistol matches," "they won't be able to do A or B or C" where the first two types of comments are meaningless, and the third type almost never actually described an issue that someone else couldn't show (fairly easily) that it wasn't a problem?

Occasionally we get a real one, though, and that makes the discussion important. The cart/sweeping thing, for example, and (from elsewhere) the default start position thing---those are two issues that I think will be important, and will make a big difference in terms of clarity and making things easier on everyone.

Other than that, though? Have there been any substantive issues seen by the people who have been running PCC in their matches? The people who aren't doing it so far, or don't want to because of potential issues---instead of saying "not going to do it" have you thought of asking the people who are already doing it what issues they are having, so you can actually have a realistic basis for making a decision?

I'm glad that MDs are thinking about potential issues. I'm thinking that they is going to find that many of the things they think are issues actually aren't, because the people already doing this don't seem to think those are significant issues.

Teros wrote: "You've done a brilliant job of picking apart Xanathar's thoughtfully-written post. I'm sure he sees the light and will be offering PCC very soon."

It seemed to me that Xanathar listed a lot of potential issues that weren't actually issues, and I asked why, or said why they weren't issues based on what people who run PCC have already said. I'm glad he's thinking about potential issues. I'm not agreeing that much of what he listed were actually issues, and said why.

If someone wants to respond to what I said, refuting my comments or saying why I'm wrong, then we can discuss solutions for those issues. Doesn't it make more sense to find a specific issue, then listen to the people who are already managing said issues, and see how they feel about them?

[Gary Stevens]

Proof of the pudding is in the tasting. PCC will live or die based on its own merits. The free market is seldome wrong.

[Racinready300ex]

Teros wrote: "You've done a brilliant job of picking apart Xanathar's thoughtfully-written post. I'm sure he sees the light and will be offering PCC very soon."

It seemed to me that Xanathar listed a lot of potential issues that weren't actually issues, and I asked why, or said why they weren't issues based on what people who run PCC have already said. I'm glad he's thinking about potential issues. I'm not agreeing that much of what he listed were actually issues, and said why.

If someone wants to respond to what I said, refuting my comments or saying why I'm wrong, then we can discuss solutions for those issues. Doesn't it make more sense to find a specific issue, then listen to the people who are already managing said issues, and see how they feel about them?

I think your post may have come across wrong, I read all the Why, why, why's as you not thinking any off is issues were relevant and didn't want to put any though into it. Maybe you just can't imagine someone not wanting to take on a bigger work load to make this happen.

I think the work load was what I took from Xanathars post. He didn't say it couldn't be done, just listed things he already has to do that will now take a little bit longer to make PCC go smoother. He's the MD, and if adding PCC is going to add all these issues no matter how minor and he is already stretched to thin. I can understand him not wanting to offer it. The solution is probably simple someone at his club who wants PCC needs to stop complaining for a minute and volunteer to assist him with his MD duties. Maybe take care off all of the PCC stuff and a few other things. In the end everyone will win as spreading out the work load can help keep guys from getting burnt out.

Just saying your wrong this isn't a big deal make it happen isn't going to help the MD run the match. And it's probably not going to change his mind about adding this new division.

[JAFO]

You cant point it at anyone even if flagged what if its in a cart?

That's a good question, and about the only thing here I think is an issue. The rule seems....unclear on this one. Personally, if someone puts a gun in a cart and then turns the cart so it is pointing at me, it isn't going to go well for them, because PCC 10.5.2.1 doesn't make any allowances for "in a cart."

I get the feeling that, for PCC, they are looking at a cart the same as a range bag.

PCC 5.2.3.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

This specifically allows PCCs to be carried in/on a cart at any angle, including horizontally. Like it or not (and I'm not particularly fond of it), it's being considered the same as if your pistol was in your range bag and sweeping everyone as you walked around. The main difference, of course, being that the trigger is exposed on the PCC.

Because of 5.2.3.4, I'm taking 10.5.2.1 as only pertaining to those PCCs being hand-carried or otherwise handled.

[pkm]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doug, at this point you have probably spent more time writing about PCC haters in this thread than shooting USPSA in the last few months. Before you cast judgment on a bunch of volunteers doing a service to the shooting community maybe you should get to a few more matches and interact with a few more folks at those clubs.. You may be surprised at why they aren't offering it they in fact aren't.

So Price, can I call you Price? In your opinion, how many matches do I need to attend to have an opinion? Obviously, Sunday didn't count. Maybe, Ramah? Ha!!! How about Centennial? Nope!

You absolutely can and I didn't say your opinion doesn't count. Only that you should be more informed before throwing stones.

[Thomas H]

You cant point it at anyone even if flagged what if its in a cart?

That's a good question, and about the only thing here I think is an issue. The rule seems....unclear on this one. Personally, if someone puts a gun in a cart and then turns the cart so it is pointing at me, it isn't going to go well for them, because PCC 10.5.2.1 doesn't make any allowances for "in a cart."

I get the feeling that, for PCC, they are looking at a cart the same as a range bag.

PCC 5.2.3.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

This specifically allows PCCs to be carried in/on a cart at any angle, including horizontally. Like it or not (and I'm not particularly fond of it), it's being considered the same as if your pistol was in your range bag and sweeping everyone as you walked around. The main difference, of course, being that the trigger is exposed on the PCC.

Because of 5.2.3.4, I'm taking 10.5.2.1 as only pertaining to those PCCs being hand-carried or otherwise handled.

And this ALSO seems a perfectly valid understanding of the rules, even though I don't like it and prefer a different interpretation. And that's one of the reasons that I'd really like a clarification from DNROI regarding carts and sweeping. Because 10.5.2.1 doesn't say "unless it is in a cart" BUT at the same time, a different rule specifically says that PCCs don't need to be reasonably vertical while being transported in a cart.

[Thomas H]

I think your post may have come across wrong, I read all the Why, why, why's as you not thinking any off is issues were relevant and didn't want to put any though into it. Maybe you just can't imagine someone not wanting to take on a bigger work load to make this happen.

I am thinking that it certainly seems like people added a lot of emotional loading to what I said, yes.

I was asking "Why?" because I was questioning "Why?" ---because in many of those cases I wasn't seeing any sort of issue that would make much difference. The list of things given don't seem to be like much that would increase a work load, which was why I kept asking "Why?"

Obviously people feel differently about this, and I am well aware that different club's MDs have vastly different duty loads in different places.

I'm just not understanding most of the problem, however. Like I said: One additional line in the WSB. No particular changes to stage designs unless stages currently have hallways and such that are less than 24" in width, or require movement through areas where people have to squeeze through. (Given the girth differences between various competitors, I don't see that as something we are normally asked to do. ) Reloads occur less than for Open shooters. Single-hand shooting (which isn't even required in classifiers) may be harder for competitors, but I'm also thinking that is part of what they are signing up for...and they know it.

Truthfully, IMO the most difficult part of dealing with PCC would be training ROs in specific handling details related to PCC if they haven't ever worked a rifle or Multigun match---and that IS something that I think is going to be additional work for an MD.

I think the work load was what I took from Xanathars post. He didn't say it couldn't be done, just listed things he already has to do that will now take a little bit longer to make PCC go smoother. He's the MD, and if adding PCC is going to add all these issues no matter how minor and he is already stretched to thin. I can understand him not wanting to offer it.

That seems more something along the lines of "being stretched too thin is a problem, we hope his shooters start helping out more" than an actual "PCC is going to create that much more of an issue."

That was my point---not whether or not he was already stretched thin and this was too much, but whether or not PCC is actually making that many issues.

Again, that's why the "Why?" kept happening. The list of things that were brought up seemed minor, and not time-consuming. For the vast majority of MDs who are running matches, if they not already stretched to almost the breaking point, I still don't see how these issues contain much actual "issue."

If someone is almost at their wit's end, then sure---anything new is going to be a problem.

The solution is probably simple someone at his club who wants PCC needs to stop complaining for a minute and volunteer to assist him with his MD duties. Maybe take care off all of the PCC stuff and a few other things. In the end everyone will win as spreading out the work load can help keep guys from getting burnt out.

Completely agree---this is a perennial problem, with simply not enough people helping out. They'll come shoot, but ask them to take on some responsibility, and you suddenly have a lot of blank looks.

If these issues ARE too much for an MD, then that MD needs more help whether or not they are going to run PCC. (Because even if they aren't going to run PCC, they obviously have too much on their plate anyway.)

I'm just still curious what actual, time-consuming issues that people who have run PCC at their clubs have found, and what they did to fix those problems.

And if those people have found that there AREN'T much in the way of problems, I'd think that people should probably start listening to them then, too.

Just saying your wrong this isn't a big deal make it happen isn't going to help the MD run the match. And it's probably not going to change his mind about adding this new division.

True. Which is why I asked "why," and when I disagreed, gave a specific reason why I disagreed. That way, if I'm wrong in my reason, he could point out where I misunderstood or wasn't correct.

My point wasn't "you are wrong, this isn't any work, you should do this" my point was (and I thought I made it clear, apparently not) "I don't understand why these should be issues, here are some simple solutions to make them non-issues."

[Gary Stevens]

I think a flagged PCC in a cart can be analogous to a pistol in a holster, considered inert.

[NickBlasta]

I think a flagged PCC in a cart can be analogous to a pistol in a holster, considered inert.

This was pretty much my thought. I lay my rifle, bagged, on top of my cart, so the muzzle is sometimes sweeping people (but it's concealed in the bag). That's basically the same as attached to a stroller arm, chamber flag in.

Edited July 6, 2016 by NickBlasta

[aandabooks]

When our club shoots 3 gun the rifles come off the line either in a bag or with a chamber flag inserted. If chamber flagged they then get put on strollers or layed horizontally in carts. First time I attended last year it was a little wierd having the rifles out but quickly became normal. I shot PCC last month at out USPSA match and we handled them the same way. I used a bag both to the line and coming off the line.

[mreed911]

When our club shoots 3 gun the rifles come off the line either in a bag or with a chamber flag inserted. If chamber flagged they then get put on strollers or layed horizontally in carts. First time I attended last year it was a little wierd having the rifles out but quickly became normal. I shot PCC last month at out USPSA match and we handled them the same way. I used a bag both to the line and coming off the line.

Not being snarky - have you read the updated PCC rules?

Edited July 6, 2016 by mreed911

[aandabooks]

Yes. What about them?

[mreed911]

Yes. What about them?

My read didn't allow for "if" on chamber flag. Did I misread?