POP (PCC Opposition Party)

[AWLAZS]

USPSA handgun matches don't use the multi gun rulebook

[Tech32]

USPSA handgun matches don't use the multi gun rulebook

Right, but they didn't used to use long guns either, but now USPSA matches do, so adopting the rules already set forth by USPSA for long guns is common sense. Easily done for anyone that already shoots 3gun. Marginally less easy for someone who hasn't.

[teros135]

The safety rules for a rifle and handgun during a stage are no different. Booger hook off bang switch unless engaging a target, don't sweep yourself, don't break the 180. Am I missing something?

Yes I think you are. Outside of this forum, which is an almost invisible sliver of the total active Uspsa membership, how many RO's do you think know the exact procedures for bagging unbagging or flagging unflagging between staging area and shooting area or from car to staging area, etc.

I have already shown there is a discrepancy between two different documents issued by HQ on the proper procedure.

I see a lot of, "close enough, I'm not sure on how it's done either", when a new PCC shooter meets an RO who doesn't mess with rifles much. Sure it's not rocket science, but would we allow a pistol guy to violate a safety rule and say," ah that's ok I'm not sure how to do that either?

Answer is no. Why? Because for the most part RO's are literally trained and tested on handgun procedures from day one.

It is clearly stated in the multigun rules how to handle long guns on and off the stage. I would think common sense would be to apply these rules to PCC. I agree it has been a short amount of time to apply and educate these rules, but I also think people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

It sure sounds easy when you talk about "common sense" and applying rules, but the discussions here seem to indicate otherwise. There has been a tremendous amount of discussion of how to tweak the rules and procedures, in order to integrate rifles into this handgun sport, so perhaps it isn't so easy.

I think part of the problem is that we're handling rifles, not handguns. Handguns get put right into a holster, at the safety area initially and then right at the end of each COF, before "Range is Clear" is stated, under the direct supervision of an RO. We can't pull them out of the holster (i.e., expose the trigger) at any other time.

Rifles, on the other hand, get handled both before and after the COF, and not under the direct supervision of an RO. From what I've observed in a couple of places, the gun handling is quite varied and is often undisciplined. Just recently I was swept twice by rifle muzzles at a MG match, while *spectating* for less than an hour. Twice. Good-intentioned people, but careless. It's the zeitgeist in many places to be lax with gun handling, and you get a lot of gas if you say anything (apparently they don't want to be bothered). I stopped shooting MG because of this. Just saying.

[Tech32]

The safety rules for a rifle and handgun during a stage are no different. Booger hook off bang switch unless engaging a target, don't sweep yourself, don't break the 180. Am I missing something?

Yes I think you are. Outside of this forum, which is an almost invisible sliver of the total active Uspsa membership, how many RO's do you think know the exact procedures for bagging unbagging or flagging unflagging between staging area and shooting area or from car to staging area, etc.

I have already shown there is a discrepancy between two different documents issued by HQ on the proper procedure.

I see a lot of, "close enough, I'm not sure on how it's done either", when a new PCC shooter meets an RO who doesn't mess with rifles much. Sure it's not rocket science, but would we allow a pistol guy to violate a safety rule and say," ah that's ok I'm not sure how to do that either?

Answer is no. Why? Because for the most part RO's are literally trained and tested on handgun procedures from day one.

It is clearly stated in the multigun rules how to handle long guns on and off the stage. I would think common sense would be to apply these rules to PCC. I agree it has been a short amount of time to apply and educate these rules, but I also think people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

It sure sounds easy when you talk about "common sense" and applying rules, but the discussions here seem to indicate otherwise. There has been a tremendous amount of discussion of how to tweak the rules and procedures, in order to integrate rifles into this handgun sport, so perhaps it isn't so easy.

I think part of the problem is that we're handling rifles, not handguns. Handguns get put right into a holster, at the safety area initially and then right at the end of each COF, before "Range is Clear" is stated, under the direct supervision of an RO. We can't pull them out of the holster (i.e., expose the trigger) at any other time.

Rifles, on the other hand, get handled both before and after the COF, and not under the direct supervision of an RO. From what I've observed in a couple of places, the gun handling is quite varied and is often undisciplined. Just recently I was swept twice by rifle muzzles at a MG match, while *spectating* for less than an hour. Twice. Good-intentioned people, but careless. It's the zeitgeist in many places to be lax with gun handling, and you get a lot of gas if you say anything (apparently they don't want to be bothered). I stopped shooting MG because of this. Just saying.

I understand your concern. I always check and point my long guns in a safe direction away from people when sweeping them down from muzzle up off the stage to muzzle down to put on my cart. I rarely see people do that and have been swept.

[MarkCO]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

[teros135]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

(Cooper's actual rule - no "as if".)

Indeed. If only people would actually DO that, we'd all feel a lot better.

[Sarge]

USPSA handgun matches don't use the multi gun rulebook

Right, but they didn't used to use long guns either, but now USPSA matches do, so adopting the rules already set forth by USPSA for long guns is common sense. Easily done for anyone that already shoots 3gun. Marginally less easy for someone who hasn't.

Then perhaps NROI should immediately start training all RO's to multigun standards?

[MarkCO]

Long guns have been in use in IPSC, then USPSA, and in rulesets, for over 30 years. This is not new. The IPSC Lawyers and whiners have expanded the complexity of the rulebook more than any division ever has, or will.

[teros135]

Long guns have been in use in IPSC, then USPSA, and in rulesets, for over 30 years. This is not new. The IPSC Lawyers and whiners have expanded the complexity of the rulebook more than any division ever has, or will.

The problem isn't as much whether there are rules, but whether people actually follow them. Rifles stay in the hand longer than handguns (both before "make ready" and after "range is clear), and I've seen too many people handle them cavalierly and not pay attention to the muzzle, then complain if you say anything (and call you a "whiner" or "rules nazi").

I don't think it would be that hard to train shooters and ROs alike to abide by the rules USPSA has set out, especially being conscious about muzzle control when the gun is in hand. It would be helpful to not have everyone rush forward to score targets until the shooter has bagged the gun. Using the side berms as the "safe direction" in bagging/carting would also help.

As an RO I don't think it will be that difficult to adapt to the new PCC rules. I'm thinking a lot of people who hear the "whiner" dialog probably just don't really want to.

[T.McDevitt]

I do have room to be upset. 5 of the local matches in my area are not allowing PCC's not do safety concerns but because of narrow mindedness. Now how can I be influential as you mentioned in changing attitudes, if in the end, i am not allowed to shoot at the match.

You could offer to set up a PCC match and run it how you want.

OR, we all can shoot together at a USPSA match. It is funny that is the quick answer go shoot your own match. As if I have said that everyone has to shoot PCC. I am not forcing anyone to do anything. It's quite the opposite.

Great solution though using your logic we should run:

A revolver match for the two revolver shooters in the state.

A production match for those who need a challenge.

A single stack match for those who like to reload.

An open match for those who like to shoot fast and not reload.

Better yet everyone has to shoot only limited. It is the happy medium.

OR you let people shoot what they want within USPSA rules, for the reasons they want, ultimately shooting with their friends in the other divisions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The difference is that all pistols can use the same start position, gun handling, etc etc. throw a long gun in the mix and the dynamics change which is the crux of the matter.

In our area matches are full to overflowing without much if any room to grow. So people shooting 2 guns or additional shooters will be a stretch. Plus 1 range doesn't allow long guns in pistol bays.

I would love to shoot a PCC match, but personally I'm not in favor of mix and match.

I'm very lucky within 1hr drive there are 6 Clubs I have shot PCC at every club, no one has had anything negative to say, and I have let dozens of people shoot my 9mm/PCC and all seemed to like. Can think of at least 7+ shooters went out and purchased PCC. And it's quick much faster than shooting most DIV. my mag holds 41

[AWLAZS]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

Ever dryfire at a match hotel?

[BeerBaron]

I thought this was a place for people who don't like PCC to meet and exchange ideas... now I found out it was started by someone who is pro-PCC and anti POP??!?! very dissapoint.

btw. jk.

[teros135]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

Ever dryfire at a match hotel?

You ever dry fire anywhere? What's your point?

[perttime]

I don't think it would be that hard to train shooters and ROs alike to abide by the rules USPSA has set out, especially being conscious about muzzle control when the gun is in hand.

A few DQs should straighten out the shooters. Is it possible to teach a RO?

Edited July 11, 2016 by perttime

[teros135]

[quote name="teros135" post="2634294" timestamp="1468190471"

I don't think it would be that hard to train shooters and ROs alike to abide by the rules USPSA has set out, especially being conscious about muzzle control when the gun is in hand.

A few DQs should straighten out the shooters. Is it possible to teach a RO?

I just said it is. Why? Do you think it's not?

[perttime]

I just said it is. Why? Do you think it's not?

I totally agree with you - just wanted to be more blunt about it.

One of the ranges that I frequent has berms big enough for rifles. We've had no issues with pistol and rifle shooters mixing there.

[teros135]

Good deal. It sounds like everybody's doing their jobs.

[perttime]

For practice sessions, many bring both pistols AND rifles, and have a go using first one and then the other.

We do have a system that ensures everybody having a grasp of safety rules...

[AWLAZS]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

Ever dryfire at a match hotel?

You ever dry fire anywhere? What's your point?

My point is most of the rules get broken when you do that.

[teros135]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

Ever dryfire at a match hotel?

You ever dry fire anywhere? What's your point?

My point is most of the rules get broken when you do that.

Ok. So how does one dry fire safely? And what is different between dry fire and live shooting at a match?

[AWLAZS]

If you look back up a few posts I kind of stirred things up when I suggested USPSA rushed the division out without properly preparing for it. I proposed that USPSA put an on line video tutorial for the members/RO folks about PCC. Mike did one to show us it was safe and how PCC shooters could do anything a hand gun shooter could do.

Would it be hard to go through and show and discuss the new rules: Range command bagging, transporting of rifle from pit to pit. What to do with it when you are supposed to be helping run the stage etc. ?

Some of you folks want this to work and come from a 3 gun background so this is all easy for you. I have a match at my home club this weekend and have no idea what I am going to do if a rifle shooter shows up. I bet he would be the only one that knows all the new rules.

[AWLAZS]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

Ever dryfire at a match hotel?

You ever dry fire anywhere? What's your point?

My point is most of the rules get broken when you do that.

Ok. So how does one dry fire safely? And what is different between dry fire and live shooting at a match?

When I dryfire at home its in the basement at cement walls. When I dryfire at the match hotel, like most folks I am breaking the safety rules and hope I don't get caught. By getting caught I mean some sort of accident where a round is fired. When I am at the match I actually fire rounds under the watchful eye of the ro. He helps me remember the safety rules. Once I am done shooting I am on my own to follow the rules with a slim chance of enforcement actions being taken. I have already demonstrated I am better then the safety rules because I was standing in my hotel room pointing my guns at the people in the room next to me. How worried will I be about sweeping someone when I bend over if no one is watching.

[Reshoot]

I do not oppose PCC at all. However, I do support PCC be shot separately from handgun. Like, all squaded together.

[Nik Habicht]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

Ever dryfire at a match hotel?

You ever dry fire anywhere? What's your point?

My point is most of the rules get broken when you do that.

Ok. So how does one dry fire safely?

Blade-Tech plastic safety barrel of course......

....also SIRT.....

[MarkCO]

1. All firearms are always treated as loaded.

2. Do not point a firearm at anything that you do not intend to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

Ever dryfire at a match hotel?

Only into a concrete wall. If there is not an appropriate place to dryfire, I do not.