POP (PCC Opposition Party)

[Strick]

I do have room to be upset. 5 of the local matches in my area are not allowing PCC's not do safety concerns but because of narrow mindedness. Now how can I be influential as you mentioned in changing attitudes, if in the end, i am not allowed to shoot at the match.

You could offer to set up a PCC match and run it how you want.

[Rangerdug]

That broomstick is still attached to the arm of the shooter. And honestly the mechanics aren't that different. I have carried a carbine, very similar to what I use in competition for over 17yrs. I honestly have yet to see a stage that I could not shoot with a carbine. that it isn't say it isn't easier with pistol.

But to use that as an excuse is weak. There are plenty of ways to add difficulty that challenges all shooters. In every stage, in every target one division has advantage over the others. In the past it has always been the Open guns.

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[Rangerdug]

I do have room to be upset. 5 of the local matches in my area are not allowing PCC's not do safety concerns but because of narrow mindedness. Now how can I be influential as you mentioned in changing attitudes, if in the end, i am not allowed to shoot at the match.

You could offer to set up a PCC match and run it how you want.

OR, we all can shoot together at a USPSA match. It is funny that is the quick answer go shoot your own match. As if I have said that everyone has to shoot PCC. I am not forcing anyone to do anything. It's quite the opposite.

Great solution though using your logic we should run:

A revolver match for the two revolver shooters in the state.

A production match for those who need a challenge.

A single stack match for those who like to reload.

An open match for those who like to shoot fast and not reload.

Better yet everyone has to shoot only limited. It is the happy medium.

OR you let people shoot what they want within USPSA rules, for the reasons they want, ultimately shooting with their friends in the other divisions.

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[fishsticks]

I do have room to be upset. 5 of the local matches in my area are not allowing PCC's not do safety concerns but because of narrow mindedness. Now how can I be influential as you mentioned in changing attitudes, if in the end, i am not allowed to shoot at the match.

You could offer to set up a PCC match and run it how you want.

OR, we all can shoot together at a USPSA match. It is funny that is the quick answer go shoot your own match. As if I have said that everyone has to shoot PCC. I am not forcing anyone to do anything. It's quite the opposite.

Great solution though using your logic we should run:

A revolver match for the two revolver shooters in the state.

A production match for those who need a challenge.

A single stack match for those who like to reload.

An open match for those who like to shoot fast and not reload.

Better yet everyone has to shoot only limited. It is the happy medium.

OR you let people shoot what they want within USPSA rules, for the reasons they want, ultimately shooting with their friends in the other divisions.

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The difference is that all pistols can use the same start position, gun handling, etc etc. throw a long gun in the mix and the dynamics change which is the crux of the matter.

In our area matches are full to overflowing without much if any room to grow. So people shooting 2 guns or additional shooters will be a stretch. Plus 1 range doesn't allow long guns in pistol bays.

I would love to shoot a PCC match, but personally I'm not in favor of mix and match.

[Nightops]

It is already mix and match. Revo and Open are not competing against each other. You are only competing against other people with like equipment, in the same division. There is no competitive equity between divisions. And all pistols don't use the same start condition, yet we are able to figure it out.

[AWLAZS]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

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This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

[Sarge]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

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This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

Agreed. PCC should adapt to USPSA NOT the other way around.

[Rangerdug]

^^^I can't agree more^^^

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[Nik Habicht]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

^^^I can't agree more^^^

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OK -- 2 mikes, FTE it is.....

After all it'll be the same for all the PCC shooters.....

[Sarge]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

^^^I can't agree more^^^

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OK -- 2 mikes, FTE it is.....

After all it'll be the same for all the PCC shooters.....

Or step out of the box and take the penalty

[Thomas H]

I will say -- we probably had at least one, often more than one target per match that was enough of a weird lean/tight angle shot that you'd never be able to shoot it with a carbine.......

.....so, allowing PCC in the same match, would require changing the skills we were looking to test.....

I'm pretty sure I'd rather set PCC as a side match, or as a separate standalone match....

Why wouldn't you be able to hit it with a PCC? I'm trying to visualize something that literally wouldn't be possible with a PCC, and I'm having a hard time doing it. Can you give an example of something like this, or a picture?

About the only thing I can think of is a tight target at an interior angle, with a wall forward of (and not connected to) the front fault line so that a PCC guy wouldn't be able to shoot the target without contacting the wall and getting a procedural for it. But....I can also think of ways around that. So I'm not understanding what kind of thing you mean.

Example?

[GrumpyOne]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

^^^I can't agree more^^^

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OK -- 2 mikes, FTE it is.....

After all it'll be the same for all the PCC shooters.....

Or step out of the box and take the penalty

Or learn to shoot strong hand/weak hand...I shoot a rifle left handed, pistol right handed...it's not that difficult to switch from left should to right shoulder (or so it seems to me...)

[Nik Habicht]

Basically tight interior target, tiny port, odd angle......

Also shot some stages with very narrow FFZ -- like less than a foot in front of the wall -- that requires tricky pistol and foot movement....

I can see people removing some of these challenges in the interests of safety for long gun shooters.....

Handguns are not carbines -- each have their uses, but they're not totally interchangeable -- and I'd like to not see pistol matches made easier because carbines want to play on the same stages....

[Nik Habicht]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

^^^I can't agree more^^^

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK -- 2 mikes, FTE it is.....

After all it'll be the same for all the PCC shooters.....

Or step out of the box and take the penalty

Or learn to shoot strong hand/weak hand...I shoot a rifle left handed, pistol right handed...it's not that difficult to switch from left should to right shoulder (or so it seems to me...)

OK to continue on that theme -- how good are you shooting the carbine with one hand only on the gun? Because we regularly encounter stages where the target engagement angles dictate firing with either strong or weak hand only.....

[Thomas H]

OK to continue on that theme -- how good are you shooting the carbine with one hand only on the gun? Because we regularly encounter stages where the target engagement angles dictate firing with either strong or weak hand only.....

Didn't this discussion already occur, and Foley even posted a video doing it?

[GrumpyOne]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

^^^I can't agree more^^^

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK -- 2 mikes, FTE it is.....

After all it'll be the same for all the PCC shooters.....

Or step out of the box and take the penalty

Or learn to shoot strong hand/weak hand...I shoot a rifle left handed, pistol right handed...it's not that difficult to switch from left should to right shoulder (or so it seems to me...)

OK to continue on that theme -- how good are you shooting the carbine with one hand only on the gun? Because we regularly encounter stages where the target engagement angles dictate firing with either strong or weak hand only.....

It obviously depends on the carbine, but I have shot M1 carbines one handed, and I've shot a 30-30 carbine one handed...you be surprised at how controllable they actually are...now, accuracy does fall off a bit after about 50 yards though.

[mwx40x40]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

^^^I can't agree more^^^

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK -- 2 mikes, FTE it is.....

After all it'll be the same for all the PCC shooters.....

Or step out of the box and take the penalty

Or learn to shoot strong hand/weak hand...I shoot a rifle left handed, pistol right handed...it's not that difficult to switch from left should to right shoulder (or so it seems to me...)

OK to continue on that theme -- how good are you shooting the carbine with one hand only on the gun? Because we regularly encounter stages where the target engagement angles dictate firing with either strong or weak hand only.....

It obviously depends on the carbine, but I have shot M1 carbines one handed, and I've shot a 30-30 carbine one handed...you be surprised at how controllable they actually are...now, accuracy does fall off a bit after about 50 yards though.

It still has to be mounted to shoulder right?

[ctay]

It still has to be mounted to shoulder right?

It does not.

[Sarge]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the exact reason that I didn't like the "new division but MD's can just not offer it" approach. There are MD's that won't offer it for a plethora of reasons and that introduces fragmentation to the USPSA product. You no longer have the same experience from one club to the next. Imagine how upset you would be if you showed up to a USPSA match and they told you "sorry, no open guns at this match".

I don't blame MD's that are skeptical. There is a lot more going on than many are willing to admit. Stage design and stage briefs must consider PCC as well as making sure that every squad that has a PCC shooter has at least one RO that is familiar with 3 gun long gun etiquette.

Stage design is not supposed to consider pcc. They want to shoot the stages we have now.

^^^I can't agree more^^^

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK -- 2 mikes, FTE it is.....

After all it'll be the same for all the PCC shooters.....

Or step out of the box and take the penalty

Or learn to shoot strong hand/weak hand...I shoot a rifle left handed, pistol right handed...it's not that difficult to switch from left should to right shoulder (or so it seems to me...)

OK to continue on that theme -- how good are you shooting the carbine with one hand only on the gun? Because we regularly encounter stages where the target engagement angles dictate firing with either strong or weak hand only.....

It obviously depends on the carbine, but I have shot M1 carbines one handed, and I've shot a 30-30 carbine one handed...you be surprised at how controllable they actually are...now, accuracy does fall off a bit after about 50 yards though.

It still has to be mounted to shoulder right?

App D8 item 6"must be "CAPABLE" of being fired from shoulder.

[bret]

It is becoming obvious that there is a growing Movement to squash the PCC division. Not by allowing it to run its own course, but by more of a heavy handed approach, Mafia style. They don't like it, so they simply bar people the opportunity to shoot their matches. USPSA sanctioned matches. Seems very American!!! I love fact that as paying member of USPSA, I can't shoot in an approved division, all because the "Don" doesn't like it.

To the members of POP, grow up. If you don't like PCC, great!!! Don't shoot it!!!But stop lording over others and preventing them from shooting and competing. For a moment remember that we are Americans; and shooting USPSA is another form expression of our 2A. Stop acting like communists, let the Division sink or swim on it's own.

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If a Club doesn't want it, why is it a problem?

[CZ85Combat]

Capable & has to are two different things. No where in the rules does it state that you can only fire from your shoulder other then strong & weak hand strings.

[Sarge]

Capable & has to are two different things. No where in the rules does it state that you can only fire from your shoulder other then strong & weak hand strings.

Exactly why I pointed out the rule. Not required but must be capable.

[NickBlasta]

I shot PCC at the match for the first time last week. Definitely different, but I was able to do leans and position work the same as I was with my handgun. It's pretty easy to fire an AR one handed, I could only imagine it'd be easier with an SBR.

[mwx40x40]

Capable & has to are two different things. No where in the rules does it state that you can only fire from your shoulder other then strong & weak hand strings.

Exactly why I pointed out the rule. Not required but must be capable.

Wow, so shooting from hip and such is ok.....interesting. I guess I need to start studying up on the rules as PCC is coming on quickly.

[motosapiens]

Capable & has to are two different things. No where in the rules does it state that you can only fire from your shoulder other then strong & weak hand strings.

Exactly why I pointed out the rule. Not required but must be capable.

Wow, so shooting from hip and such is ok.....interesting. I guess I need to start studying up on the rules as PCC is coming on quickly.

why not? you can shoot from the hip with a handgun if you want.

I have to say I don't care about this issue at all except to argue on the internet.

We had a squad full of pcc shooters at our match on saturday. I didn't really observe them but I noticed the top placed pcc guy was in 4th overall, about where he normally places with his production gun. I also noticed that the pcc squad was still on their next to last stage after the rest of us had finished the match and taken everything else down and put it away. The conclusions I can draw from this are:

a) pcc is no advantage over an open or limited gun unless the stages are specifically designed for PCC.

pcc shooters are slow, so I should avoid squadding with them or in the squads immediately behind them.\

I also heard at least 1 observer mention that he saw numerous 180 breaks that were not called, for whatever reason. From this I can conclude that pcc is inherently unsafe.