Rules you would like to see changed.

[Jadeslade]

I would be willing to pay even more for an entry fee if it meant professional RO's and a consistent fair reset that I (and my shooting buddies) did not have to lift a finger to accomplish. Especially if those reseting where scantily clad ladies.

This sounds like something Taran could arrange. I'm in.

[Alaskapopo]

400 should be max for 3 gun. Would you shoot at something you can't see? I know some people do, and I have seen their disastrous results. One of the primary rules of shooting. If you can not identify what you are shooting, don't shoot it. Why 500? A special distance? You would use the same gun to shoot at 25 yds? i don't think so. Our game is what people will shoot. Seen plenty of matches and MDs disappear. Seen a LaRue Match lately? Nope. But the same people are still shooting other matches.

Its not that hard to see a man sized target at 500 yards. Yes I would use the same gun at 25 yards as I do at 500 and do quite often in matches. In fact in other sports like Highpower people shoot further than that with iron sights.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Alaskapopo

[ericm]

A reason to have a max engagement distance of 500 yards is because this is a practical sport and the USMC qualifies with their individual service weapon to 500 yards .

[kurtm]

Ahhh....Steely, it does happen time and time again! You need to come shoot overseas!!! This is exactly the type of shooting we do, the lady,s may not be scantily clad, but at the last world shotgun all the target resetters were HOT college girls. Over there you don't re-set, and MAN!!! some of the setters are...well I got to go! Oh yeah, and every target falls down and is painted for every shooter. Oh the huge Manatee (humanity)

[Moltke]

What about making the 400+ targets bonus targets and count as a ten sec time reduction each. Don't think you can hit it? Don't waste your time. If you know you can then take the shots. If you just want to see what happens for fun go ahead see what happens. Irons shooters may not bother with it, more scoped probably will go for it, another division distinction for better or worse who knows? Personally as long as I can see it, I will shoot it... so a 4moa target at 600 doesn't bother me (until I'm missing and taking penalties, but I'll wait until then to be annoyed).

[ericm]

Opposite Devil's Advocate!!!!

....what about re-instituting the old SOF rule : you don't hit that 400 yard target, do not pass go, do not collect a good score; do or die, hit it or run out of ammo or time....

.....do or do not, there is no try.....

mi dos centavos (muy peligroso)

ericm

[Alaskapopo]

What about making the 400+ targets bonus targets and count as a ten sec time reduction each. Don't think you can hit it? Don't waste your time. If you know you can then take the shots. If you just want to see what happens for fun go ahead see what happens. Irons shooters may not bother with it, more scoped probably will go for it, another division distinction for better or worse who knows? Personally as long as I can see it, I will shoot it... so a 4moa target at 600 doesn't bother me (until I'm missing and taking penalties, but I'll wait until then to be annoyed).

Bonus targets are not really bonus because if they can be hit you need to hit them to be competitive. I personally would like to see the 4 moa rule but stop it before the target gets larger than a man sized target.

Pat

[Jim Norman]

Based upon a couple comments in the past few...

4MOA Targets to a maximum 18", this is a Metric USPSA target. It would cover targets out to 450 yards. Full size Metric at 600 yards is a doable shot, but it is only available on a limited number of ranges.

Fail to neutralize a target, Zero a stage? A little rough, but it would be fair. You might loose a number of competitors due to this.

Bonus targets are a bad idea as is too small a penalty for misses. They encourage leaving targets unengaged and deliberate missing. This is not what the sport is based upon.

As for the crews resetting targets, FNH does it, but I can assure you, none of the crews looked remotely like College Girls.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Jim Norman

[Stlhead]

This thread has become a wandering behemoth of scattered good and dreadful ideas. I say we let it die and start new, more pointed discusion threads.

[Rookie]

So... if every match is the same (target size, shape, distance, color, presentation), everybody is happy? ...Not!

Every Match Director seems to have their own touch and I can pretty much depend on it (for their matches) from year to year. I don't need to see target placement, maximum distance, minimum size and resetting management in their ruleset. I select matches to attend based upon the general challenges presented. If I can see a target, with or without magnification, there exists a probability that I can hit it (that's over-confidence speaking). In theory, I should be able to hit a 2MOA target with my match rifle and ammo... if a match director chooses to put a 4" plate at 200 yards and every competitor has to hit it or take a penalty... why not?

1. RM3G is a rifle match. I need a scope to see a 10" diameter target set at 300 yards (in the shade). I have Red/Green and Blue/Yellow color deficiency so I cannot see the orange backers in the woods. But I thoroughly enjoy the challenge that JJ and Denise put on, so I go every year and have my butt kicked, in more than one way. A bonus target at 1400 yards is a rush when you hit it with the allocated 1 shot as are the 450 - 630 yard targets on the clock.
2. SMM3G is a mock hoser match for all 3 weapons, with a bunch of no-shoots thrown in to make it interesting. Full size paper targets at 250 yards plus, and a few steel out to a maximum of 400 yards. It would not upset me to have the Shotgun round count boosted a bit with more options for reloading strategy, but this is another "not miss" match for me.
3. FB3G is a long range rifle match (my opinion again), but it is a "bug hunt". If the sun is in the right place at the right time, I can find the targets. Running across rope bridges while engaging targets and knock down pistol targets from across the river is something I don't see at the other matches.

If these matches were all the same... same size/type of target at the specified distances, it could negatively impact some (if not a lot) of the interesting challenges that some of our creative match directors and stage designers put on the ground for our entertainment. A "classifier" stage every once in a while is tolerable... but a match consisting of classifiers would fall well into the intolerable (for me) category.

Just sayin'

Edited June 21, 2015 by Rookie

[SonOfSpartans]

Stages should be set up so that in what might be expected to be the worst lighting and weather conditions, the targets will be visible with the naked eye and able to be engaged with iron sights. Generally this would mean any of several of the ideas posted above, essentially the 4MOA limit and arguably paint between squads, although the other side of that is never paint, shot targets usually are gray, so start all targets painted gray and go from there. If one can see the 16" gray target posted out at 400 yards without binos, then we are good, if the targets are visible only because you can see the flash card above it and you are simply aiming under the card, your targets are technically not visible and therefor should have no penalty attached!

This is a sport or a game, you can define it either way. it is not real, it is a one way range. So competitive equity comes into play. I would almost stand for a rule where there is an upper limit to range. Yes many people do shoot rifles with scopes that would allow for 600 yard and longer shots. Most of the competitor pool cannot practice at those ranges, many have never had the opportunity to fire even one shot at 600 plus yards.

There are matches where precision shooting and finding your target is the name of the game, 3-Gun is NOT that game. We are a 'Run-N-Gun' sport, some short stuff, some middle stuff a bunch of medium long 250-300 and a couple shots out to maybe 400. After this you are now talking DM and Sniper match.

Maybe a side match might be offered for those that want to try their hand at especially long range targets and being able to locate targets spread out in a field with no markers, but it isn't 3GN, or any other brand of Multi-Gun I am aware of.

I'll now retreat to my bunker and done my flame suit.

Our game is what the match designers chose to make it. I personally don't like the trend of late by 3 Gun nation to make everything a short range run and gun affair. That stuff is fun but I still like a challenging long range stage here and there as well. 400 is an ok limit but I think 500 is a bit better. Frankly I don't want to see all matches do exactly the same thing as it makes things boring. But what I like another shooter may find boring and vice versa. I like variety.

Pat

I agree with this. I personally like multi gun matches that use the entire envelope of each gun and player.

Opposite Devil's Advocate!!!!

....what about re-instituting the old SOF rule : you don't hit that 400 yard target, do not pass go, do not collect a good score; do or die, hit it or run out of ammo or time....

.....do or do not, there is no try.....

mi dos centavos (muy peligroso)

ericm

That is like the limited time Comstock stages in USCA. Miss any steel with rifle over 50 yards and you earn par time on the stage. Based on replies here it is easy to see that some do not like it. I do.

So... if every match is the same (target size, shape, distance, color, presentation), everybody is happy? ...Not!

Every Match Director seems to have their own touch and I can pretty much depend on it (for their matches) from year to year. I don't need to see target placement, maximum distance, minimum size and resetting management in their ruleset. I select matches to attend based upon the general challenges presented. If I can see a target, with or without magnification, there exists a probability that I can hit it (that's over-confidence speaking). In theory, I should be able to hit a 2MOA target with my match rifle and ammo... if a match director chooses to put a 4" plate at 200 yards and every competitor has to hit it or take a penalty... why not?

• RM3G is a rifle match. I need a scope to see a 10" diameter target set at 300 yards (in the shade). I have Red/Green and Blue/Yellow color deficiency so I cannot see the orange backers in the woods. But I thoroughly enjoy the challenge that JJ and Denise put on, so I go every year and have my butt kicked, in more than one way. A bonus target at 1400 yards is a rush when you hit it with the allocated 1 shot as are the 450 - 630 yard targets on the clock.
• SMM3G is a mock hoser match for all 3 weapons, with a bunch of no-shoots thrown in to make it interesting. Full size paper targets at 250 yards plus, and a few steel out to a maximum of 400 yards. It would not upset me to have the Shotgun round count boosted a bit with more options for reloading strategy, but this is another "not miss" match for me.
• FB3G is a long range rifle match (my opinion again), but it is a "bug hunt". If the sun is in the right place at the right time, I can find the targets. Running across rope bridges while engaging targets and knock down pistol targets from across the river is something I don't see at the other matches.

If these matches were all the same... same size/type of target at the specified distances, it could negatively impact some (if not a lot) of the interesting challenges that some of our creative match directors and stage designers put on the ground for our entertainment. A "classifier" stage every once in a while is tolerable... but a match consisting of classifiers would fall well into the intolerable (for me) category.

Just sayin'

Exactly. Different flavors are fun.

Pistol up close and at distance. Steel at 100 anyone? Shotgun in static hose, flying and slug? Sure! Steel and clays up close and at distance forcing choke and load decisions? Sure! Rifle up close and fast as well as at distance? Of course! I will not forget showing up at my first ever "DMR" match shooting out to 600 and down to TWO MOA. Did just fine with a sixteen inch gun and 1x6. My 3gun setup at the time.

Making all matches the same? Not so much.

I do totally agree that targets should be visible for any offered division.

[Stlhead]

Target and match diversity are not mutually exclusive of visible and appropriate targets.

[Lead-Head]

Round here folks are already trading the couple of$250-300 majors they used to go to for shooting some pretty high quality local matches and shooting more often. Like about every other weekend. Then you see all these little 2-day or 1.5 day events. Small club series. Local SG matches, team events. Local night shoots. 2-guns matches. Most around here are $20-30 bucks. Very few of these folks give a hoot about shooting the majors. Even those that are a couple hours drive from their front door. Does this mean anything? I don't know but seems to be a trend in my neighborhood.

There is really no excuse for not having visible LR rifle targets at any match. It can be done without increasing match fees. Backers work and they are cheap.

I'll keep my $100 and reset my own stage. I like the exercise.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Lead-Head

[TonytheTiger]

^ I concur.

[Stlhead]

Local matches are local matches, but major matches are a different animal. If someone wants to shoot local matches and not bother with big matches then more power to them, but major matches are more than just expensive local matches. I rarely shoot local matches because I have my own pistol bay and can set up stages and shoot them to my hearts content without leaving home. When I go to a match I want as many stages as possible, and I want the stages to be Big. Long steel, flying clays, exciting pistol Arays, loads of movement and positions, and lots of stupid shit. I want to see my buddies from all over the country, I want to drink beer after I shoot and I want to eat excellent food with those guys (and gals) that I only get to see when I travel to big matches. Tapeing targets and picking up steel at a major match does not add to my enjoyment our our fine sport. When I play hockey the rink manager does not ask me to drive the zamboni before I take the ice, he adds it to the cost of my ice time. When people play golf they pay for someone to mow the grass and tend the greens. This is no different.

[P.E. Kelley]

Local matches are local matches, but major matches are a different animal. If someone wants to shoot local matches and not bother with big matches then more power to them, but major matches are more than just expensive local matches. I rarely shoot local matches because I have my own pistol bay and can set up stages and shoot them to my hearts content without leaving home. When I go to a match I want as many stages as possible, and I want the stages to be Big. Long steel, flying clays, exciting pistol Arays, loads of movement and positions, and lots of stupid shit. I want to see my buddies from all over the country, I want to drink beer after I shoot and I want to eat excellent food with those guys (and gals) that I only get to see when I travel to big matches. Tapeing targets and picking up steel at a major match does not add to my enjoyment our our fine sport. When I play hockey the rink manager does not ask me to drive the zamboni before I take the ice, he adds it to the cost of my ice time. When people play golf they pay for someone to mow the grass and tend the greens. This is no different.

I am with you mister!

[Langenator]

A reason to have a max engagement distance of 500 yards is because this is a practical sport and the USMC qualifies with their individual service weapon to 500 yards .

You realize they have ten minutes to shoot ten targets, slung up so tight your arm is going numb, right?

Edited June 21, 2015 by Langenator

[dkynoch]

I am with the hose that would pay $100 more at a big match to not have to reset. I am just getting into this game semi serious, but my main goal is to have fun and hang out with buddies. I just shot Ironman and I will probably only shoot 3 or 4 more matches this year. I had a great time at Ironman but I would have had a better time if between shooting I could go watch a buddy shoot on another squad or just shoot the bull. $100 compared to what I spent would be negligible and I would have a lot more fun. The whole time I was thinking this is a vacation it seems more like work.

[usmc1094]

I am with the hose that would pay $100 more at a big match to not have to reset. I am just getting into this game semi serious, but my main goal is to have fun and hang out with buddies. I just shot Ironman and I will probably only shoot 3 or 4 more matches this year. I had a great time at Ironman but I would have had a better time if between shooting I could go watch a buddy shoot on another squad or just shoot the bull. $100 compared to what I spent would be negligible and I would have a lot more fun. The whole time I was thinking this is a vacation it seems more like work.

Try FNH, and I think the entry fees are about the same as other major events. The staff does all the reseting you just show up and shoot.

[NMBOpen]

If you have a ready supply of reliable labor, otherwise it's another task for an already busy MD.

[ketanchand]

There needs to be a steel swinger only match. That way no one has to reset targets, paste targets, or set up clays again on the stands. The RSO running the clock counts all the hits.

Frangible ammo is supplied and the regulation ammo.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Why not toss in a couple thoughts that aren't likely to be popular?

1- People who are fine with no limits on rifle mags, and no capacity limits on pistols (140mm LENGTH and whatever you can stuff in there with a custom mix of follows, basepads, and springs can yield 19-24rds!)...but somehow wanting to limit the shotgun to a certain number of rounds just shows a bias against one gun, favoring a weak point in your game, and desire to keep/return things to a way things were previously done. Only the last one of those things do I consider a valid reason. If we want to return tacops to SOF type rules, then lets run mag tubes within a certain amount of the barrel length, and set a barrel length max. Keep in mind, limiting down to 7rd tubes like the old Benelli's were virtually eliminates quad loading more than once, and will have an effect on those companies making caddies and mag tubes. If you do the same with rifle mags, you remove mag options and sales for mag parts, components, and sponsorships for 3-gun from those companies. Just a thought.... Here's the problem with how I'm seeing it tho....12-14rd tubed shotguns are generally seen as silly looking outside of the sport. Is there a medium ground that appeases the people who don't put money into the sport buying parts, components, guns? 24" max barrel length with 10rd tube? I don't know. Take into account that there aren't a ton of spectators and looky-loos watching the sport for entertainment (and they don't spend much on the sport either) and run our 12rd tubes regardless of what some non-shooter or USPSA only shooter on Facebook thinks? Keep in mind, watching people load a shotgun is kinda boring for the lay person...watching clays exploded and paint get blasted from steel targets isn't....the spectator may appreciate fully loaded 12rd tubes and little to no loading on the clock!

2- Production division is fine for a local match if there is support/desire....but a "run what ya brung" idea would work better and place them in whatever division they fall into. After all...I'm gonna have to go buy a whole new set of gear to compete in the Production division from what I would in tacops and tacirons. They aren't going to win in the start, and who wants to win a division with only one person in it? For major matches.....you're willing to travel 3-20 hours one way, pay $150-450 for a match fee, $250 for a hotel, $250 for fuel, $100 for food....but you aren't willing to have the correct equipment for the division of your choice, and still expect to be competitive? If you're local and going to RO a match, new to the sport, and/or get to shoot the match for free....run what ya brung and fall into the default division for your most elaborate piece of kit until you get things lined out. Even 3GN's Factory division allows modified shotguns with opened loading ports and lightweight bolts, custom 2011 pistols, and custom rifles with lightweight components... while setting capacity limits to force reloads and stage planning.

3- Targets. I have to agree that 3-gun scoring on paper is sloppier than USPSA/IDPA, and I joke back and forth with my local USPSA shooters about it. There are two sides to this coin tho...it takes more time to score individual target scoring zones versus neutralized or not. I've seen reset take long enough at matches that it's difficult getting people through in time when shooters were rushing to reset paper and steel, I can't imagine how it could get with self squadding resulting in a squad or two of slow shooters timing out and another full of old or fat men who can't reset twice in a row without having oxygen administered, let alone having them stand and wait until every target is called out and scored before they reset. You are going to have to allow more time to shoot the match, which works well for Mr. Horner where I shot Blue Ridge, but I doubt would work well for 3GN where we shoot 8-9 stages in 2 days instead of 3. That's why we have a core group of shooters arguing that scoring should be like a Horner match, and another group arguing to leave it alone. I personally like both and would like to attend both...the only reason I miss Blue Ridge is that missing a Wednesday in my office to drive would cost me more than the top 3 guys pull off the prize table.

4- DQ's .....this is MY only personal quarrel with some matches these days. IMO, a DQ'able offense is something dangerous, everything else is a penalty assessed, possibly with penalties varying depending on the level of "derp" you happened to have achieved. This falls in line with the thought of a stage DQ being better punished as a 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 90, or 100 second penalty, being DQ'd for a safety being off in a dump barrel, and fault lines. If the mistake was made in a safe enough manner that the RO did not stop the shooter from proceding, make it painful with a penalty, but the person wasn't unsafe enough to go home....and in most instances. I've seen DQ's for slugs hitting birdshot steel and the target has to be assessed AFTER the stage is over. If the shooter shot the stage in 30 seconds and received a 90 second penalty....they are 90 seconds or or 75 stage points behind a shooter who shot it in the same amount of time. I've seen people DQ'd because they were shooting, stumbled their foot just over the rear fault line that was set in front of the rear of the berms on the bay without firing a shot and pistol safely down range, he brought his foot back forward before firing his next shot, but was DQ'd. I've seen shooters DQ'd for drawing their pistol in a safe direction just before a fault line within a stage, 2' forward and no change in direction or safety, and that shooter would have been fine. Were those scenarios unsafe enough to warrant a match DQ? Would a big time penalty have been just as damaging on that stage (or even match) as a stage DQ for a stage points match or total time match? DQ's for cheating, using ammo not allowed by the match rules (not mixing them up in a stage, but M855 and bimetal),....are fine.

5- Dump barrels/buckets need to be vertical and secured! As long as the gun is in there and the muzzle is pointed at the ground, it's safe and not going to go bang on it's own unless you brought an unsafe gun that shouldn't have been used in the match to behind with. I don't really care if that means grip safety versus thumb safety, or no safety on. After all, it's somehow in a safe enough direction at most matches for someone to clear the gun in the barrel while the shooter is down range of the gun, but not safe if the safety is clicked off by a rough surface in a dump barrel while still in a safe direction?

6- When we sling rifles empty they violate most other safety rules, so they are considered a STICK, because we aren't controlling them with manual dexterity and they are violating the 180 degree rule every time we turn our bodies. I would argue the STICK rule still exists if the rifle sling breaks and the empty gun is sitting on the ground exactly how it would be on our carts, racks, or in our cars. What I can't argue is how a completely empty rifle and a shotgun with empty chamber/loaded tube are equally safe to be slung. Either the rifle with empty chamber and mag inserted is safe, or the shotgun needs to be completely empty since some shotguns can be loaded by simply pulling the charging handle instead of dropping a shell onto the lifter first.

7- The argument about hot reholstering being unsafe is the same argument that picking up hot stage guns is unsafe compared to "cruiser ready." If my rifle and shotgun can't have one in the chamber to start, then why can I have a hot pistol on my side (that I had to make hot, then holster). I've yet to see an occurrence where anyone HAD to reholster a hot pistol....maybe where there was an advantage to doing it, but not forced to. If you don't have the skill or confidence in that skill, don't hot reholster. I've been at two clubs where someone had recently popped off a round when holstering after making ready....maybe we should start with all guns completely empty on all stages, and only uses holsters to get guns to where they can be loaded safely?

8- Rule sets should be somewhat flexible in hearing where changes are wanted by shooters, as long as it does not violate the safety and possibly even style of the match. 3GN has done a good job of having a group of shooters that they can conference with about possible rule changes, and they have made changes based upon what the shooters have discussed. If you listen to Ravin Perry's 3GunShow podcast, you can hear about one of these rule changes. If you are inflexible to positive changes in rules and possibly equipment, you are probably going to get left behind by the sport....if you are too accepting of negative changes in rules and equipment, you don't ask enough questions. Now, let's fight over what is positive and negative!

Just my thoughts on the subject of rules that need to be changed....or not.

[TonytheTiger]

There's nothing in that post that I can disagree with. Congrats, your my new BFF.

[kurtm]

Okay...lets argue. Stand in a wash tub of salt water with bare feet. Grab the positive terminal on your car battery, NOW grab the negative.....it will immediately show you why you don't want to be negative. A negative rule is, can, or will shock you! a positive won't.

As for all the "silly little rules", like no hot re-holstering, long ass mag tubes, red dots in "iron sights" etc. we are sooooo far from where this "sport" came from that it is like a revolutionary era soldier observing the fight over gay rights

Edited July 8, 2015 by kurtm

[Bryan 45]

8- Rule sets should be somewhat flexible in hearing where changes are wanted by shooters, as long as it does not violate the safety and possibly even style of the match. 3GN has done a good job of having a group of shooters that they can conference with about possible rule changes, and they have made changes based upon what the shooters have discussed. If you listen to Ravin Perry's 3GunShow podcast, you can hear about one of these rule changes. If you are inflexible to positive changes in rules and possibly equipment, you are probably going to get left behind by the sport....if you are too accepting of negative changes in rules and equipment, you don't ask enough questions. Now, let's fight over what is positive and negative!

Just my thoughts on the subject of rules that need to be changed....or not.

After being a local match director that willingly participated in the 3GN Club series in 2013 and 2014, I can tell you we, nor the other local match directors that participated in the club series, were NOT contacted by 3GN with proposed rule changes for 2015. Instead, they were sent out as "here are the new rules."

They may have talked to some shooters, but I have yet to hear they talked to any match directors about the changes. But it made our decision easy and we no longer have to be concerned with their rules.