Maximis228 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 How about everyone does a little dry fire. Divisions will change on their own. The only way for YOU to get better is to practice. Everything else is just blowing smoke. Is there anything about rules changes in your post? Divisions do change, by magic. Got that right. We're talking about the game. You're talking about practice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d29VsG35DQMD Practice is the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I would like to see things like no drums, no Surefires 50 & 100 round mags in Tac-Optic. They skew the field. 30 round mags in rifle, 140MM mags in HG (170 for SS) in Tac-Optic and Tac-Iron. Leave my mags alone! Occasionally I'll use a PMAG40 or a PMAG30 with Nordic +18 or a Surefire 60. They don't skew the field - mags are cheap. Stop thinking like someone that lives in a nanny state. OK, How about this, limit to 30 rounds in the mag and I don't care how big your mag is. There is a cost and also a difference in the competitiveness. Changing a magazine on a rifle is something that should be a part of the skills needed to compete. How do you guys feel about letting mag fed shotguns into tac optics with the caveat that they have iron sights, start loaded to nine and only allowed to load 5 rounds into each subsequent mag? I would be against it. as someone else said, if you limit the capacity it becomes a mag changing contest and if you don't it essentially ends the competitiveness of the tube guns. While not a "rule" per-se, there is a new trend in the 3-gun shooting community with which I take issue. Hot re-holstering is a horrible idea. I'm not sure why 3-Gun Nation thought it would be a good idea to allow this (in my opinion) unsafe action during matches, but it resulted in a guy shooting himself in the leg at a local match last month. With the popularity of 3-gun increasing at an exponential rate, the local shooting communities have a huge influx of new shooters. It's been my personal experience that many of these new competitors are not really trained, and in some cases, not all that familiar with their equipment. If you put them into a situation where a stage calls for a hot re-holster, that's just a recipe for eventual disaster. That particular action is one that REQUIRES training and intimate knowledge of your firearms/equipment and many of these new shooters just don't have it. That's not a dig against these guys in any way....it's just a straight-up fact. We were all there at one point or another in our shooting careers. We put rules in-place first and foremost to protect people against injury to themselves and others while at matches. It seems to me that the hot re-holster concept is counter-intuitive to the "spirit of the law" we all play by. Fortunately, in the case of last month's accident, it wasn't overly serious, and I believe the individual went home that night. I've been to only one or two matches that required hot-reholstering and also single handed reloads. Both are skill sets everyone SHOULD have, but are very likely skill sets virtually no one does have. I would stay away from these. Other items that I didn't bother to quote. Vlad, A rule about not changing the rules! I like that. Unless there is a safety issue or some new incredible piece of unobtainium gear then leave the rules alone. Time Plus is good, straight time can easily make a match into a one stage wins the match game. If all the stages are well balanced that is fine, but anytime you have one exceptionally long stage where it can be broken by one shooter that halves everyone's time, this system fails. That same shooter may only perform at that level on that one stage. Time Plus-Points is the best way, all stages are worth 100 points, 10 seconds supper go fast and 450 yards, tough, make your hits you need to do both well and everything in between. I would not have an issue with bi-pods provided they stay on the gun. As stated early on, I am against two optics. Two optics on a rifle moves you to Open. Sorry, a 1 x 6 is not an absolute requirement, a decent 1-4 will get you through most matches at less than half the price. Add a decent red dot and you are approaching the 1-6 $ range. and as was stated, a red dot is faster than a back-up iron sight. and your point? Keep in mind that this is a GAME. Games have rules. Sometimes we have rules simply to differentiate between divisions! Sometimes it is becasue if we don't set certain limits the game is broken and people will stop playing. Me, I am going to take my 15 year old rifle and pistol, my new shot gun and an assortment of other gear and head off to a match this weekend. As an OLD GUY, I hope to finish around 33-40%. Anything better and I am ecstatic! Remember it is the Indian, not the Arrow and practice does not make perfect, PERFECT Practice makes perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Vlad, I would disagree about the gross safety issue being the only thing that is needed to make a rule change. In the past we had have success with certain rules being change, for example Limited. Reddots/1x Scope practically saved that division from becoming non-existent. Also it seems shotgun rules go back and forth, before you weren't allowed to load past 8rnds in some matches where others you could, now it seems almost all allow to load past 8 after the buzzer. Though there is a movement to make "limited" division have the throwback rule to only 8 rounds again, which I'm not against. Limited doesn't have to be noob friendly, I just like to see it become more like NASCAR. I know I'll get tar and feather but I do like what 3GN did to limited/factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 You could easily set certain stipulations for each gun to keep out race parts without writing 100 page rulebook. For new people starting 3-Gun I don't recommend they buy a bunch of new stuff, instead I tell them to show up with what they have, or use my gear, and I help them out as much as I can. A frequent question is "to be competitive what's it going to cost" and the answer is "a lot". But a division of normal guns and gear, things not only used in 3-Gun competitions, things used in the real world that normal people already own??? Well that would make sense for a lot of people. Pistols - 9mm, 15+1 maximum capacity, no visible external modifications while the gun is in battery except for sights of your choice Shotguns - 12 gauge, 20" maximum barrel length, 8+1 maximum capacity, no visible external modifications while the gun is in battery except for sights of your choice, no matchsaver Rifles - .223 caliber, 16" or shorter rifles with chrome lined barrels, no low mass parts, flash hiders instead of muzzle brakes, must have front and rear sights, and allowed one non-magnified red dot but not a 1x scope It probably WOULD be a division where beginners come to play, but why is that being viewed as a bad thing? Or where people who AREN'T interested in being gamers come to shoot, and why is that viewed as a bad thing? You're getting more people out to shoot and NONE of it would have any affect on gamers with gamer guns in gamer divisions, any more than Heavy affects Open right now. Much lower cost of entry to a very fun sport that many people are going to immediately love and probably branch out to other divisions. I fail to see a downside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 But Moltke, you just kicked out at least 2/3rds of new shooters who might run what they have with the barrel limitations on the Shotgun and Rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) So do you believe that a major match is the correct venue for a beginner shooter that hasn't "figured it out"? I don't. Edited June 3, 2015 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 So do you believe that a major match is the correct venue for a beginner shooter that hasn't "figured it out"? I don't. Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyinTX Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) I would not have been able to use my rifle(18") or shotgun(24") at my very first match. And would be downloaded my pistol mags by 2 rounds. I distinctly remember needing every round in my 3 pistol mags to complete one stage with them loaded to 17 too. As far a being competitive, it costs a decent chunk of change. But setups are talked about on here all the time that don't cost outrageous amounts that guys have used to be competitive and win. The Stoeger M3000 springs to mind. But it matters even more for certain skill to be learned on how to play the game too. Edited June 3, 2015 by TyinTX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) I see quite a few problems with the hypothetical rules Moltke. The vast majority of shotgun's people seem to have lying around have barrels over 24". I see a lot of newer guys that need every round in their 18 round pistol mag because the gun only came with two mags. There's plenty of m4 clones without chrome lined barrels (and how would you tell anyhow?). A ton of MD's, RO's and especially gun owners can't tell the difference between a red dot and a 1x scope, much less a flash hider or muzzle brake. If the division gained any traction people would game the parts rules just as much as anywhere and it would end up just as specialized as anything else, it would just look more docile and maybe less intimidating than a bunch of obvious race guns. I also fail to see a downside, but I don't see any reason for it to exist either. Between practical and factory a new shooter can find a place to run what they brung and be just as un-competitive as they would be in an off the shelf division. Edited June 4, 2015 by TonytheTiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) I am ok with a pump in limited! Me and about 4 others probably. Edited June 4, 2015 by Lead-Head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Let's break what isn't broken. We have more matches around the country than ever before and nearly all of them fill. We have two problems and neither have to do with rules. #1 Not enough workers of matches. #2 New guys shooting 3-Gun as their very first competition shooting event. (I want to juggle 3 running chains saws before I know how to hold one) Edited June 4, 2015 by P.E. Kelley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Let's break what isn't broken. We have more matches around the country than ever before and nearly all of them fill. We have two problems and neither have to do with rules. #1 Not enough workers of matches. #2 New guys shooting 3-Gun as their very first competition shooting event. (I want to juggle 3 running chains saws before I know how to hold one) BINGO!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Well said Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I am curious though, why all the hate for semi auto SG's and tubes holding more than 8 rounds? Is this just from guys too cheap to trade in their pump gun and people who think tubes sticking past the muzzle looks dumb and are bitter about everyone having a higher capacity than them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Good point thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyinTX Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Let's break what isn't broken. We have more matches around the country than ever before and nearly all of them fill. We have two problems and neither have to do with rules. #1 Not enough workers of matches. #2 New guys shooting 3-Gun as their very first competition shooting event. (I want to juggle 3 running chains saws before I know how to hold one) #2 was me and that's an accurate description. I'm trying to help on #1. I am curious though, why all the hate for semi auto SG's and tubes holding more than 8 rounds? Is this just from guys too cheap to trade in their pump gun and people who think tubes sticking past the muzzle looks dumb and are bitter about everyone having a higher capacity than them?I'm not wanting to change it. I like the rules we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Let's break what isn't broken. We have more matches around the country than ever before and nearly all of them fill. We have two problems and neither have to do with rules. #1 Not enough workers of matches. #2 New guys shooting 3-Gun as their very first competition shooting event. (I want to juggle 3 running chains saws before I know how to hold one) VERY TRUE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) I like the idea of having to use a pump for limited. I would go out and buy a nova tomorrow if it were so. Why does everyone want to mess with limited? I shot factory at Tarheel, and I will admit it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I still prefer the old limited rules. El Guapo go buy a nova, you will love it! Then go buy a .308 and a .45 and quit pissing with limited? Edited June 4, 2015 by bmiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I am curious though, why all the hate for semi auto SG's and tubes holding more than 8 rounds? Is this just from guys too cheap to trade in their pump gun and people who think tubes sticking past the muzzle looks dumb and are bitter about everyone having a higher capacity than them? Because the guns look retarded? Seriously, what ever match director first said it was ok to put more rounds in the gun than the starting capacity after the buzzer must have been out in the sun too long. I know that we are not "Tactical" but in a division called Tactical Optics a 50+ inch long shotgun is anything but. I shoot a 10+1 Versamax but would be more than happy drop it back to a more reasonable (Tactical) length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I couldn't care less about being tactical, but when shotguns need extensions added to 48" bags, and don't fit in trunks without disassembly you have to ask if we've gone to far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Vlad, are you having tube envy? OK, now I agree that IS going too far, but somebody had to jump in and say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Let's break what isn't broken. We have more matches around the country than ever before and nearly all of them fill. We have two problems and neither have to do with rules. #1 Not enough workers of matches. #2 New guys shooting 3-Gun as their very first competition shooting event. (I want to juggle 3 running chains saws before I know how to hold one) I will cop to doing 3-gun as my first action shooting sport (I did Olympic-style 3-position rifle in college, and shot the All-Army matches once. Or do you count trench assault live-fire training as a action shooting sport? ) That said, I took the plunge because I saw that TXMG had opened a "WWII Division" (this was late fall of 2011) - M1 Garand, 6+1 pump, and single-stack 1911 (8+1). I already had 2 of those 3 guns, so it lowered the cost to start, and the "gear intimidation factor" tremendously. (I added the shotgun for $200 - a used 870 Wingmaster with 26" barrel.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) A lot of the suggestions and comments in this thread around keeping 3-Gun equipment "real World relevant" have fed into the new Stealth Division that the IMA-SMM3G rules team is experimenting with. We can argue about the finer points, but that is our intent. One reason I am glad we don't yet have a single, one-size-fits-all monolithic rules set just yet. Hopefully Maybe in a few years. Edited June 4, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Why do you want a one-size-fits-all rule set in the future?? No more innovation ever needed??? Just sayin' I prefer to think that 3-Gun shooters are capable of reading the rules and coming prepared. So many of the great innovations in the rules over the last 5 years have come about BECAUSE we don't have a governing body and multiple rule sets with people willing to try new things. If it were not for some of the "outlaw" matches, the USPSA rules would not have changed much either. Free enterprise...free market...you know...the pillars of our Republic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Why do you want a one-size-fits-all rule set in the future?? No more innovation ever needed??? Just sayin' I prefer to think that 3-Gun shooters are capable of reading the rules and coming prepared. So many of the great innovations in the rules over the last 5 years have come about BECAUSE we don't have a governing body and multiple rule sets with people willing to try new things. If it were not for some of the "outlaw" matches, the USPSA rules would not have changed much either. Free enterprise...free market...you know...the pillars of our Republic!! I agree - poor choice of words on my part. Maybe "a more stable and aligned set of rules" is a better term to use, or as they say in Europe "ever closer union" . Edited June 4, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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