D.Hayden Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 So many of the great innovations in the rules over the last 5 years have come about BECAUSE we don't have a governing body and multiple rule sets with people willing to try new things. If it were not for some of the "outlaw" matches, the USPSA rules would not have changed much either. Very well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I suggest a rule that sets a minimum number of rounds for each gun per stage as well as a maximum number of hits per target. Also a rule that states all targets will be visible to the shooter with the naked eye or the shooter will not be penalized for not shooting at it. We travel to matches and pay our entry fees, we should get to shoot a lot, and it is a violation of the cardinal rules of firearms to shoot at targets that you can't see so don't make us do it anymore. Another rule would be that anyone that wants to have a beginners division or any other similar bovine shit division should not only be forced to shoot lame gear in the match the lame division was proposed for, but in all other matches for a period of not less than 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 What are the "great innovations" over the last 5 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 What are the "great innovations" over the last 5 years? Dump barrels instead of putt putt platforms..though arguably they started in Texas a number of years ago. The fact that you can go down range of them since they are pointed in a safe direction instead of having to stay back at the mouth of the berm because you can't move forward. Different shaped and sized targets and optional targets. Steel that can be shot with birdshot or pistol. Paper that can be shot with rifle or pistol. Being able to sling a rifle...though it is uncomfortable. Being able to use targets that signal hits...I know, all steel should fall to score, but it does allow longer targets and re=engagement. Flying birds...I know, many of these things that I find exciting, other people dislike... Quite a few fun things that add variety which were not possible with either IDPA or USPSA rules, and in fact opened up some of IMGA (SMM3G) rules as well. I think some of those seem great to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Originating at an "Outlaw" match is different than them not being allowed under another ruleset. While I agree USPSA is a mess right now in the leadership arena, they still have an exemplary safety record. Something a few of the newer rule sets can not say. Regardless, one thing that seems clear to me is that the competitors at large want a consistent ruleset across matches, even if just the safety portion. There are matches like SMM3G and RM3G that have been doing this a long time. While it makes me laugh a little when I see a "new" target array that I shot three years ago, or a new dump barrel configuration touted as new that has been in use for at least 5 years, some of it really does come from many MDs not shooting the matches of their "competition" to learn and improve the general sport. Granted RM3G was the first match I worked and shot and I learned a good deal from JJ and Denise, it was JJ who encouraged me to go shoot matches around the country to learn how others do it, both right and wrong. While there is a lot of good, there is more "bad" in the last year than I saw in the prior 9 combined. I know it has been attempted before and failed, but there sure seems to be a vacuum where a non-profit 3Gun focused organization could be created that would put a lot more "fun" back into the sport that so many of us love. Just too many horses pulling on the hay ride from a bunch of different directions. When it all comes unraveled, it will be interesting to see where the passengers end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Oh MarkCo - that makes me sad! In 2003, when I started 3-Gun, it was all about having fun shooting and spending time with like minded people! My first match, someone lent me everything but my pistol. I ended up buying gear just like that I had borrowed. I got so lucky!!! He-Man Nationals has that same feel...a bunch of people enjoying shooting together. Yeah, we have competition...someone wins! But, everyone seems so supportive! That's what I remember from 2003 and that's what I LOVE about 3-Gun!!! I know that the competition has ramped up and shooter's shirts are all over the place. In 2003, you just wore something comfortable. I miss those days as well! I am more hopeful! I see many of the "outlaw" matches attracting those same good people...okay, we are all getting a bit older! I hope that the pendulum swings back to good people, good fun AND some competition!! I AM NOT one of those people who think everyone needs to win something...but I DO THINK that shooting the match is the goal and the prizes a bonus...and sadly, I'm afraid MarkCO is right and that is NOT the goal for everyone!! But, I will hold on to my dreams and keep putting on matches for those who come out to have a good time!!! ADVERTISEMENT on the way: If you feel like MarkCO and I, you might want to join the Outlaw 3-Gun Challenge! Just a friendly, low budget competition to add some spice and bragging rights! Think about it! http://outlaw3gunchallenge.webs.com/ SMM3G, He-Man, Ironman, JP RM3G, Gen III, Fallen Brethren and Blueridge are all matches where you can gain points!!! Now, back to my regularly scheduled comment...I think there are still good, safe 3-Gun matches out there where people "just wanna have fun!" My $.02! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Scoring? Two anywhere promotes sloppy shooting, and we've all been doing it a long time. I also like Andy's system of Alphas are clean, everything else is a penalty. 8 round max capacity tubes for all but open. And all paper targets must be of a shape that respects and reflects the roots of the game of practical shooting. I'm pretty happy with all other rules. Bryan how does this scoring system work with the alphas I agree that the 2 anywhere is sloppy. Have not heard of Andy's system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 You could easily set certain stipulations for each gun to keep out race parts without writing 100 page rulebook. For new people starting 3-Gun I don't recommend they buy a bunch of new stuff, instead I tell them to show up with what they have, or use my gear, and I help them out as much as I can. A frequent question is "to be competitive what's it going to cost" and the answer is "a lot". But a division of normal guns and gear, things not only used in 3-Gun competitions, things used in the real world that normal people already own??? Well that would make sense for a lot of people. Pistols - 9mm, 15+1 maximum capacity, no visible external modifications while the gun is in battery except for sights of your choice Shotguns - 12 gauge, 20" maximum barrel length, 8+1 maximum capacity, no visible external modifications while the gun is in battery except for sights of your choice, no matchsaver Rifles - .223 caliber, 16" or shorter rifles with chrome lined barrels, no low mass parts, flash hiders instead of muzzle brakes, must have front and rear sights, and allowed one non-magnified red dot but not a 1x scope It probably WOULD be a division where beginners come to play, but why is that being viewed as a bad thing? Or where people who AREN'T interested in being gamers come to shoot, and why is that viewed as a bad thing? You're getting more people out to shoot and NONE of it would have any affect on gamers with gamer guns in gamer divisions, any more than Heavy affects Open right now. Much lower cost of entry to a very fun sport that many people are going to immediately love and probably branch out to other divisions. I fail to see a downside. I like our production division I created up here in Alaska. Its gotten pretty popular Pistols Same as limited 10 in USPSA. 10 +1. No comps or optics. Shotguns Must be pump no optics or comps. 9 rounds at the start. Rifles 30 round mags max, no magnified optics, no bi pods. Red dot or Irons only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger6 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 If you want to have fun, go to any Johnson 3 Gun matches. Hey, even my dog loves them. Ranger6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 You can say that every action with a firearm REQUIRES training and intimate knowledge of your firearm and equipment. Hot reholster didn't make that guy shoot him self, pulling the trigger did. Hot re-holstering is a bad idea. Everyone is allowed to attend these matches for the most part from people who are scary dangerous in gun handling to the majority who are perfectly safe. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Scoring? Two anywhere promotes sloppy shooting, and we've all been doing it a long time. I also like Andy's system of Alphas are clean, everything else is a penalty. 8 round max capacity tubes for all but open. And all paper targets must be of a shape that respects and reflects the roots of the game of practical shooting. I'm pretty happy with all other rules. Bryan how does this scoring system work with the alphas I agree that the 2 anywhere is sloppy. Have not heard of Andy's system. Pat, all paper requires 2 hits to neutralize. If those 2 hits are both Alphas, it's a clean target- no penalties. Charlies are .5 second penalties, Deltas are 1.5 second penalties. So a target that has only 2 Deltas, although neutralized, carries a 3 second penalty. If it has only one Alpha, it's a 5 second FTN penalty. Some people say it's a pain in the ass to score. But it's not. Penalties just come down to how many total Charlies, Deltas, FTN are on the stage. It really does make competitors slow down just enough to get solid, center of mass hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Scoring? Two anywhere promotes sloppy shooting, and we've all been doing it a long time. I also like Andy's system of Alphas are clean, everything else is a penalty. 8 round max capacity tubes for all but open. And all paper targets must be of a shape that respects and reflects the roots of the game of practical shooting. I'm pretty happy with all other rules. Bryan how does this scoring system work with the alphas I agree that the 2 anywhere is sloppy. Have not heard of Andy's system. Pat, all paper requires 2 hits to neutralize. If those 2 hits are both Alphas, it's a clean target- no penalties. Charlies are .5 second penalties, Deltas are 1.5 second penalties. So a target that has only 2 Deltas, although neutralized, carries a 3 second penalty. If it has only one Alpha, it's a 5 second FTN penalty. Some people say it's a pain in the ass to score. But it's not. Penalties just come down to how many total Charlies, Deltas, FTN are on the stage. It really does make competitors slow down just enough to get solid, center of mass hits. I like it. pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Pat, if people are unsafe they need to be sent home. We are talking about playing with real guns. before nearly every stage in a USPSA match the pistol is reholstered hot, are you suggesting this is unsafe? We run with guns, and shoot while running, safe gun handling s a REQUIREMENT of our sport at every level. Violating the cardinal rules of gun handling should not be tolerated, but your holster is where your pistol is carried when you are not shooting it. When you are at work your pistol is where? What condition is your pistol when you holster it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Holstering before the buzzer is different than after. Shirt tail or jacket caught in loop during holster could be a game ender. How about middle ground? Holster on empty chamber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I am against any rule that REQUIRES a gun to be emptied on the clock... more fine motor manipulation increases the risk of a dropped gun, AD, broken 180 etc. Lots of stupid goes on when folks are required to unload on the clock. I would sooner avoid on-the-clock reholstering altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I am against any rule that REQUIRES a gun to be emptied on the clock... more fine motor manipulation increases the risk of a dropped gun, AD, broken 180 etc. Lots of stupid goes on when folks are required to unload on the clock. I would sooner avoid on-the-clock reholstering altogether. Could you help me understand this? We reload and rack slides on the clock all the time. Sometimes that leads to a DQ for a 180 break or an AD due to finger management. How are those fine motor skill any different than unloading prior to a holster? I really want to understand the total logic behind it. (Not being an argumentative smart A$$) I know this is a 3gun related thread, but there are rules in another game a play that allow hot re-holster or a dump. Many ranges are logically (to me) opposed to the hot on the clock holster, so they use dump buckets. The dump buckets limit stage design and shooter options so I was hoping to see a change that allows clearing the pistol and holstering it. Since that game can have a person going prone or taking odd positions where people are flagged (yes I know it is a holstered gun. I also know pistols become dislodged on the clock, too) the start condition of the pistol is usually empty chamber if starting with rifle. Exact thought and any data or examples would be greatly appreciated to assist my thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I am against any rule that REQUIRES a gun to be emptied on the clock... more fine motor manipulation increases the risk of a dropped gun, AD, broken 180 etc. Lots of stupid goes on when folks are required to unload on the clock. I would sooner avoid on-the-clock reholstering altogether. I am with Stealthy on this! WE (the 3 gun community) tried unloading on the clock and that was a bad deal and we quit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I am against any rule that REQUIRES a gun to be emptied on the clock... more fine motor manipulation increases the risk of a dropped gun, AD, broken 180 etc. Lots of stupid goes on when folks are required to unload on the clock. I would sooner avoid on-the-clock reholstering altogether. Could you help me understand this? We reload and rack slides on the clock all the time. Sometimes that leads to a DQ for a 180 break or an AD due to finger management. How are those fine motor skill any different than unloading prior to a holster? I really want to understand the total logic behind it. (Not being an argumentative smart A$$) I know this is a 3gun related thread, but there are rules in another game a play that allow hot re-holster or a dump. Many ranges are logically (to me) opposed to the hot on the clock holster, so they use dump buckets. The dump buckets limit stage design and shooter options so I was hoping to see a change that allows clearing the pistol and holstering it. Since that game can have a person going prone or taking odd positions where people are flagged (yes I know it is a holstered gun. I also know pistols become dislodged on the clock, too) the start condition of the pistol is usually empty chamber if starting with rifle. Exact thought and any data or examples would be greatly appreciated to assist my thinking. I know there are a lot of opinions on this , so here is my .02 worth. If you have an AD going into a dump bucket odds are greater that the round will impact further from your body. If you have an AD re-holstering, odds are the round may go into your leg. I have seen all levels of competitors (from "D" to GM) have an AD while performing medial (sp) task. But , because of the direction of the muzzle, all was well, other than the DQ they received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 A couple of thoughts.... Reholstering handguns on the clock is a terrible, like felony stupid terrible idea, whether they are loaded, unloaded, on safe, off safe, or whatever. There is never a legit reason to put a pistol into a holster quickly. Ever. As for the "2 anywhere" scoring... No doubt it's crazy fast and easy to score, and I think it can still make for challenging stages, designers just have to be a little more creative. Hard cover, distance, steel (which you just seem to see more and more of at matches) and those wretched little 1/2 size USPSA targets can be combined to make "2 anywhere" still a challenge. Pump shotguns only in Limited.... love it. There needs to be a place for pump guns to compete. 8-round shotgun tubes... probably a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 I've been seeing a lot of 1/3 ipsc targets stapled to full size ipsc no-shoots, keeps you honest with your "2 hits anywhere" bullet hosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) Pat, if people are unsafe they need to be sent home. We are talking about playing with real guns. before nearly every stage in a USPSA match the pistol is reholstered hot, are you suggesting this is unsafe? We run with guns, and shoot while running, safe gun handling s a REQUIREMENT of our sport at every level. Violating the cardinal rules of gun handling should not be tolerated, but your holster is where your pistol is carried when you are not shooting it. When you are at work your pistol is where? What condition is your pistol when you holster it? The problem is you usually don't find out they are unsafe until something bad has already happened. Holstering hot guns with the varying skill level of shooters we have is inviting disaster which will end our sport. As for work my officers are trained to a certain level where I trust them. They don't get qualified with their weapons until they are at a level I can trust them. We are not playing a game. Apples to Oranges. Again with matches we let everyone in and we do not require any prerequisite training to shoot the match. Pat Edited June 6, 2015 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 What are the "great innovations" over the last 5 years? Well, the Browning A-5 was certainly a game changer!. I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 What are the "great innovations" over the last 5 years? Well, the Browning A-5 was certainly a game changer!. I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself. Ha! I am glad there is one person with less restraint than me! I have been chuckling about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Hmm since this will never happen I'll throw this one out there since it is a elephant in the room. I say we should limit the number of Shooters in each division so we don't get a gross over abundance in one division over another. BAM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Hmm since this will never happen I'll throw this one out there since it is a elephant in the room. I say we should limit the number of Shooters in each division so we don't get a gross over abundance in one division over another. BAM I've considered that before. But then I ask myself "why should the match director be concerned with how many shooters are in any division?" I see both sides of this- But does it make the match any more enjoyable experience for the shooters that are told their choice of division is full and they have to shoot something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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