Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Rules you would like to see changed.


Recommended Posts

I just want to start a discussion of rules from any of the rule sets out there that you would like to see changed, with an explanation of why. Feel free to discuss.

I'll start, I think tac optics should expand from allowing one optic on the rifle to two. One of the biggest hurdles for new shooters is the high price of a quality 1 to 6x optic. If shooters were allowed to use a 3-9x with an offset dot the cost to get started would be much lower. This type of set up is seeing more use in real world settings as well.

I also think its time to do away with these long shotgun tubes. Andy Horner got this right when he wrote the rules for Blue Ridge. A tube that holds 8 rounds should be the standard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 225
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I would like to see Production class without a round count limit. If the Glock guys' guns came from the factory with more capacity, why take away some of the "production" features of the gun just to level the field? If the 1911 guys want to put up their accuracy and speed up against the higher capacity, but possibly less accurate guns I say let them shoot it out. Otherwise, its not really production gun vs production gun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

El G,

I would agree to the 8-Round Tube, but not to the multiple optics. You can use a 3-9 and a speed sight. An optic, even unmagnified is a game changer.

As to the cost of entry. this is not a cheap hobby. And unless you are shooting at big matches and your skill level is way up, a 1-4 Scope from some of the second tier mfgs is fine. In fact 1-4s aren't that much even from the upper tier mfgs. By the time you buy a decent daylight usable RedDot and a mount and a scope and a scope mount you are pushing the edges of just doing it right anyway.

I would like to see things like no drums, no Surefires 50 & 100 round mags in Tac-Optic. They skew the field. 30 round mags in rifle, 140MM mags in HG (170 for SS) in Tac-Optic and Tac-Iron.

Reloading is a skill set. Same reason the 8 round tube is fine. Now, there needs to be an understanding there. I shoot a Buck load that is longer than my bird and slug loads. I can get 8 of them in, but that allows for 9 bird. Being bumped to open for that sort of issue is wrong. We'd need to address that. Maybe 8 of the shortest shells you carry?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like to see the major match directors come together and make one rule set, with standard divisions, and scoring. I don't care what it is and if club matches still do whatever they want, but it would be nice if gear and rules were the same from major to major.

I would not like to see Tacops change.

I would like Open to be "anything goes"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

El G, why do you assume that new shooters need to have a full suite of high speed equipment right after they start? Yes, it's nice to have the same or comparable toys as the 'cool kids', but it's unnecessary.

Heck, I started out shooting HM Irons with an M1 Garand, an 870, and a Kimber 1911. Moved up to an AR with an EOTech, a Beretta 92, and the same 870, and finally an AR with a 1-4x, a CZ-712, and an M&P Pro. One of my friends shot his first couple of matches with an iron sighted AR, his duck gun, and a Glock 19.

It's the Indian that matters, not the bow & arrow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And he placed competitively in Open right? This is 3-Gun, gear matters, fitness matters, skill matters (to be competitive). I'd also like to see a division where a G19, 870 with 8rd tube, and basic AR with red dot is "considered" competitive. But then matches have to reflect that in course design and target presentations if its going to be successful. Painted 4+moa rifle steel for example which is something I have trouble explaining to my own club staff sometimes.

Edited by Moltke
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And he placed competitively in Open right? This is 3-Gun, gear matters, fitness matters, skill matters (to be competitive). I'd also like to see a division where a G19, 870 with 8rd tube, and basic AR with red dot is "considered" competitive. But then matches have to reflect that in course design and target presentations if its going to be successful. Painted 4+moa rifle steel for example which is something I have trouble explaining to my own club staff sometimes.

Awe, common. You know you love those grey skinny sammies against dry clay and shale at 160....... ;)

Edited by SonOfSpartans
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont think every beginner needs a full compliment of the best go fast gear. I just dont see the point in making the optics companies rich by making it an advantage to spend big money on a 1-6 over a 3 to 9 plus a dot. I love my vortex 1-6x but its still not as fast on 1x as a micro dot at 45 degrees. Offset irons are crap as well.

I guess this is why I like stealthy blaggas idea for a stealth division so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Need is a strong word for beginners when talking about gear. But redesign of rules and divisions should take into account competitive equity, or else everything can be classified Open and we can all just shoot together. I'm sure that higher skill and more experienced shooters would prevail but for people close in skill level it will matter more and change their placement slightly. Not something to drive the sport but not something to be ignored either. Creation of an off the shelf division with nonrace guns could be fun for seasoned shooters too. I'd do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that mr Horner has some darn fine rules. I dont like lengthy rules. Simple is usually better, changing every year to some new fangled format is kinda a pain. Time plus sucks in my opinion. Divisions should be basically left alone.

New shooters are gonna have less gear and less experience. They are probably gonna finish behind more seasoned shooters...changing rules to try to create "entry" divisions is unnecessary. Changing the equipment rules every other year just makes it confusing.

But...for me rules are about 4th on my list of things that make a match worth shooting, and whatever rule set works for the MD are his/her choice. Stage design is first..all else comes after.

Edited by Lead-Head
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No equipment changes! And no "entry divisions" either!

Call it whatever you want but its not a starter division its just an off the shelf division, which will be popular with many new and seasoned shooters. And it will scare many others away who hide behind light triggers, race guns, and high powered optics because they can't otherwise "feel" like they're performimg well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just don't like when people talk of making a division to be less expensive for newbies. Its an expensive sport, get over it. Start with what you have and don't expect to be competitive, regardless of what you have.

I'm not opposed to an off the shelf division, but the only way to make it fair and free of loopholes would be to have a spec class. It would need a list of approved guns, they would have to be unmodified and it would end up looking like USPSA production division. If not for that, everyone would just buy the latest and greatest 3 gun ready, off the shelf, rifle like a Rhino, JP, Seekins etc. and still have 96% of the performance of a full custom race gun. No other way to avoid an arms race that I can see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like to see things like no drums, no Surefires 50 & 100 round mags in Tac-Optic. They skew the field. 30 round mags in rifle, 140MM mags in HG (170 for SS) in Tac-Optic and Tac-Iron.

Leave my mags alone! Occasionally I'll use a PMAG40 or a PMAG30 with Nordic +18 or a Surefire 60. They don't skew the field - mags are cheap. Stop thinking like someone that lives in a nanny state.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scoring? Two anywhere promotes sloppy shooting, and we've all been doing it a long time. I also like Andy's system of Alphas are clean, everything else is a penalty.

8 round max capacity tubes for all but open.

And all paper targets must be of a shape that respects and reflects the roots of the game of practical shooting.

I'm pretty happy with all other rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest abolishing the words "factory configuration" from all of the ruleset as it causes way too much confusion.

I also like the idea of the 3GN Factory division but think they should have gone a bit further. Pistols should be DA first shot or striker fired. Perhaps no lightened bolts or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just don't like when people talk of making a division to be less expensive for newbies. Its an expensive sport, get over it. Start with what you have and don't expect to be competitive, regardless of what you have.

I'm not opposed to an off the shelf division, but the only way to make it fair and free of loopholes would be to have a spec class. It would need a list of approved guns, they would have to be unmodified and it would end up looking like USPSA production division. If not for that, everyone would just buy the latest and greatest 3 gun ready, off the shelf, rifle like a Rhino, JP, Seekins etc. and still have 96% of the performance of a full custom race gun. No other way to avoid an arms race that I can see.

^This. I started with a $400 shotgun and pistol and a $800 rifle. I had a hell of a good time and I'm upgrading. Sky's the limit on what you can spend but any change to even out existing divisions would be an arms race. An off the shelf division is neat in theory, but I don't see it getting past that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading this and other such threads makes one thing abundantly clear - you can't please everyone.

The reason 3-Gun rules keep changing is because they are not yet perfect. The free market is homing in on perfection, but it could take us years to get there. My view is that USPSA has really nailed a lot of the match administration, safety and conduct rules (which all 3-Gun matches rely on so they don't have to write their own 100-page rule book). USPSA has also listened to its customers by adopting IMA standards like time-plus scoring and the most commonly established equipment divisions. In fact, I would be open to adopting USPSA rules wholesale in my matches except for three major problems:

1) They really tie the hands of the stage designer; the handgun-centric "shoot them as you see them" mindset, the restrictions on target types/presentation, etc.

2) They define unsafe acts like ADs too narrowly.

3) USPSA is an overly-deliberative body, meaning they are not nimble enough to adapt to the changing trends in equipment and techniques in what is still a very dynamic and fast-changing discipline (in comparison, evolution in handgun technology over the last 20 years has been glacial).

Much as we might decry the fact, 3-Gunners are just too wild and free-spirited to be tamed :devil:

Edited by StealthyBlagga
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...