Rules you would like to see changed.

[Doug H.]

Don't get me started on competitive equity. It is impossible to make every stage exactly the same for every shooter if you take lighting and weather into consideration. If you prefer a division shoot it and see how you stack up against everybody else. Swapping divisions at the last second because you are afraid of a few targets just makes you look silly.

Doug

[Moltke]

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Edited June 16, 2015 by Moltke

[Doug H.]

I stopped worrying about being mature forty years ago. I stand by my opinion as stated. You are free to do as you wish and I will continue to call 'em as I see 'em.

Doug

[Moltke]

To prevent further thread drift I started a topic on switching divisions here. I never considered this would be something that people looked down on

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=217004

[ketanchand]

A division should be created that follows the same pattern as other major sports, like football and basketball, in that each competitor in the division will use the exact same gear provided by the match.

For example:

1) Rifle - Bone stock Colt 6920 w/ Aimpoint Micro T-2

2) Shotgun - Bone stock Remington 870 Express Tactical

3) Pistol - Bone stock Glock 19

4) Rifle Magazine - Magpul PMAG M3

5) Pistol Magazine - Stock Glock 19 mag

6) Rifle Ammo - M855

7) Pistol Ammo - M882

8) Shotgun - etc. ...

9) Belt and holsters also standard, etc ...

The price for entry into this division will be higher since you are supplied with ammo, but at least you don't have to spend thousands of dollars on your own gear. The playing field will also be leveled since everyone uses the same quality equipment.

Round counts, magazine counts and stage design can then be based on this division.

And of course, each player would have a starting stage for zeroing their issued rifle, sort of like a classifier stage.

Since the cost of the equipment is high for the match director, entrants into this division would be limited to 10 - 20, depending on how well-funded the match has been.

[MarkCO]

Baseball bats and gloves, golf clubs, hockey sticks etc. are not provided. A spec division with provided gear and ammo would be more expensive with very minimal turnout if other divisions are available.

[SonOfSpartans]

I want a rule where a classifier stage has the shooter hit a golf ball onto a marked fairway. The golf ball must be shot with one of the three guns. Points assigned based on the gun used at the distance marked. A slug or pistol hit at 100 yards (for example) would get more points than the same hit with a rifle. Using a wedge and getting an areal hit with birdshot has a bonus factor based on where the ball lands and so on......... (OK. TIC but it sounds like a fun stage)

Mark, you standard division concept sounds a lot like a section of the "World Shoot" from last year. Guns and ammo provided.

[ketanchand]

You mean the "world shooting championships" at peacemaker? If they can do it why not more matches?

[Lange22250]

How do you guys feel about letting mag fed shotguns into tac optics with the caveat that they have iron sights, start loaded to nine and only allowed to load 5 rounds into each subsequent mag?

Wouldn't that make it a 'mag changing' competition rather than a shooting competition? Why the desire by so many to limit mags?

Considering the reliability I see out of mag fed shotguns and the hassle factor of mag changes on the ones that aren't extensively modified, I'd love to see it as I'd become more competitive with my M2's and a good quad load.

After ROing Ironman, CT and MWMG the last few years I don't see the mag shotguns as much of a competitive advantage anymore because don't seem to be able to run for a match.

[toothandnail]

How do you guys feel about letting mag fed shotguns into tac optics with the caveat that they have iron sights, start loaded to nine and only allowed to load 5 rounds into each subsequent mag?

Wouldn't that make it a 'mag changing' competition rather than a shooting competition? Why the desire by so many to limit mags?

Considering the reliability I see out of mag fed shotguns and the hassle factor of mag changes on the ones that aren't extensively modified, I'd love to see it as I'd become more competitive with my M2's and a good quad load.

After ROing Ironman, CT and MWMG the last few years I don't see the mag shotguns as much of a competitive advantage anymore because don't seem to be able to run for a match.

Been shooting an MKA 1919 since 2013, I have never, NOT finished a match, or a stage, due to any type of SG failure, I had a double feed once, dropped the mag, cycled the bolt, mag in , finished the stage. I have well over 6K rounds through mine, can count on 1 hand the failures of any kind with it.

[Jim Norman]

Stages should be set up so that in what might be expected to be the worst lighting and weather conditions, the targets will be visible with the naked eye and able to be engaged with iron sights. Generally this would mean any of several of the ideas posted above, essentially the 4MOA limit and arguably paint between squads, although the other side of that is never paint, shot targets usually are gray, so start all targets painted gray and go from there. If one can see the 16" gray target posted out at 400 yards without binos, then we are good, if the targets are visible only because you can see the flash card above it and you are simply aiming under the card, your targets are technically not visible and therefor should have no penalty attached!

This is a sport or a game, you can define it either way. it is not real, it is a one way range. So competitive equity comes into play. I would almost stand for a rule where there is an upper limit to range. Yes many people do shoot rifles with scopes that would allow for 600 yard and longer shots. Most of the competitor pool cannot practice at those ranges, many have never had the opportunity to fire even one shot at 600 plus yards.

There are matches where precision shooting and finding your target is the name of the game, 3-Gun is NOT that game. We are a 'Run-N-Gun' sport, some short stuff, some middle stuff a bunch of medium long 250-300 and a couple shots out to maybe 400. After this you are now talking DM and Sniper match.

Maybe a side match might be offered for those that want to try their hand at especially long range targets and being able to locate targets spread out in a field with no markers, but it isn't 3GN, or any other brand of Multi-Gun I am aware of.

I'll now retreat to my bunker and done my flame suit.

[P.E. Kelley]

Stages should be set up so that in what might be expected to be the worst lighting and weather conditions, the targets will be visible with the naked eye and able to be engaged with iron sights. Generally this would mean any of several of the ideas posted above, essentially the 4MOA limit and arguably paint between squads, although the other side of that is never paint, shot targets usually are gray, so start all targets painted gray and go from there. If one can see the 16" gray target posted out at 400 yards without binos, then we are good, if the targets are visible only because you can see the flash card above it and you are simply aiming under the card, your targets are technically not visible and therefor should have no penalty attached!

This is a sport or a game, you can define it either way. it is not real, it is a one way range. So competitive equity comes into play. I would almost stand for a rule where there is an upper limit to range. Yes many people do shoot rifles with scopes that would allow for 600 yard and longer shots. Most of the competitor pool cannot practice at those ranges, many have never had the opportunity to fire even one shot at 600 plus yards.

There are matches where precision shooting and finding your target is the name of the game, 3-Gun is NOT that game. We are a 'Run-N-Gun' sport, some short stuff, some middle stuff a bunch of medium long 250-300 and a couple shots out to maybe 400. After this you are now talking DM and Sniper match.

Maybe a side match might be offered for those that want to try their hand at especially long range targets and being able to locate targets spread out in a field with no markers, but it isn't 3GN, or any other brand of Multi-Gun I am aware of.

I'll now retreat to my bunker and done my flame suit.

I am with you on this post!

[DocMedic]

As much as I would LOVE to ALWAYS have painted steel 4MOA targets EVERYTIME, its just not reasonable or fair to the RO staff with the current way we do shooter schedules. Seriously, being CRO at several large matches around here I can barely give my Stage RO's time to drink water little lone tell them to go up mountain sides (RM3G) to go paint targets, without the next squad trumping on top of us wanting to get ready to shoot. And even if you do have the opportunity to do so, its not just "Go paint the targets" Its usually repair backers so the targets can be seen, replace a blown bolt because it was shot, the whole endeavor can take more then 15mins easily. I've been pretty good about it though at matches I've CRO where you at least get fresh painted targets in the Morning, and I take time out of my lunch break to repaint those targets so the afternoon shooters won't have beat to crap targets when they get there, and I do this out of my own heart as I'm also a Limited shooter.

[Stlhead]

If the general will was there it could be done. The problem is that the will only exists in a few of us. The vast majority of shooters would rather have lower entry fees, less volunteered hours, and shorter matches, and take the trade off of less visible, unpainted targets that are not as equitable as possible. Everything is a trade off. If competitors demanded painted targets then they would be provided, but as 1x shooters are the ones usually bitching, and there just are not that many of us, there will be little progress. As long as the masses believe that 6 power is required to hit any target past 40 yards there will never be a a change. I think it is about time we just drop the whole thing and move on to trying to get paid resetters and beer gardens at matches. There may at least be hope for those changes.

[Stlhead]

Just to be clear, the last post was in to way meant as a joke or sarcastic in any way. I really think we should have dedicated reset crews so shooters do not score, or reset stages in any way. And team High Life will ALWAYS come out in favor of more beer.

[P.E. Kelley]

Considering that a $300 entry fee is a less than a fifth of what I spend to go to a RM3G or SMM3G match

another 100 bucks for painted targets and or paid RO's would suit me fine.

[Stlhead]

I would be willing to pay even more for an entry fee if it meant professional RO's and a consistent fair reset that I (and my shooting buddies) did not have to lift a finger to accomplish. Especially if those reseting where scantily clad ladies.

[openclassterror]

I would be willing to pay even more for an entry fee if it meant professional RO's and a consistent fair reset that I (and my shooting buddies) did not have to lift a finger to accomplish. Especially if those reseting where scantily clad ladies.

OOOh!!! I'm in!

[toothandnail]

Looks like we got 3 who would be willing to pay a $400.00 entry fee for a match with visible targets and no resetting, Get 97 more and I'll host the match

[Mad Doc]

I'm in

[Jim Norman]

FNH Championship. Targets may not be painted, but ALL resetting is done by Staff! I know, I've Ro'd and CRO'd all but the first match. Great venue, great schedule for shooters.

[Moltke]

Great points Jim! Bright backers with grey steel is just as good as painted steel as far as I'm concerned. Visibility is key to shooting and anything that provides contrast is good enough. I know some people don't like it that they can't see their impacts on the berm but there's usually enough berm available in the now highly visible impact area that you can purposefully come off target and see some dirt fly to make an on the fly adjustment. As for FNH 3Gun, yes.

[Alaskapopo]

Stages should be set up so that in what might be expected to be the worst lighting and weather conditions, the targets will be visible with the naked eye and able to be engaged with iron sights. Generally this would mean any of several of the ideas posted above, essentially the 4MOA limit and arguably paint between squads, although the other side of that is never paint, shot targets usually are gray, so start all targets painted gray and go from there. If one can see the 16" gray target posted out at 400 yards without binos, then we are good, if the targets are visible only because you can see the flash card above it and you are simply aiming under the card, your targets are technically not visible and therefor should have no penalty attached!

This is a sport or a game, you can define it either way. it is not real, it is a one way range. So competitive equity comes into play. I would almost stand for a rule where there is an upper limit to range. Yes many people do shoot rifles with scopes that would allow for 600 yard and longer shots. Most of the competitor pool cannot practice at those ranges, many have never had the opportunity to fire even one shot at 600 plus yards.

There are matches where precision shooting and finding your target is the name of the game, 3-Gun is NOT that game. We are a 'Run-N-Gun' sport, some short stuff, some middle stuff a bunch of medium long 250-300 and a couple shots out to maybe 400. After this you are now talking DM and Sniper match.

Maybe a side match might be offered for those that want to try their hand at especially long range targets and being able to locate targets spread out in a field with no markers, but it isn't 3GN, or any other brand of Multi-Gun I am aware of.

I'll now retreat to my bunker and done my flame suit.

Our game is what the match designers chose to make it. I personally don't like the trend of late by 3 Gun nation to make everything a short range run and gun affair. That stuff is fun but I still like a challenging long range stage here and there as well. 400 is an ok limit but I think 500 is a bit better. Frankly I don't want to see all matches do exactly the same thing as it makes things boring. But what I like another shooter may find boring and vice versa. I like variety.

Pat

Edited June 20, 2015 by Alaskapopo

[Jadeslade]

400 should be max for 3 gun. Would you shoot at something you can't see? I know some people do, and I have seen their disastrous results. One of the primary rules of shooting. If you can not identify what you are shooting, don't shoot it. Why 500? A special distance? You would use the same gun to shoot at 25 yds? i don't think so. Our game is what people will shoot. Seen plenty of matches and MDs disappear. Seen a LaRue Match lately? Nope. But the same people are still shooting other matches.

[Jadeslade]

Stages should be set up so that in what might be expected to be the worst lighting and weather conditions, the targets will be visible with the naked eye and able to be engaged with iron sights. Generally this would mean any of several of the ideas posted above, essentially the 4MOA limit and arguably paint between squads, although the other side of that is never paint, shot targets usually are gray, so start all targets painted gray and go from there. If one can see the 16" gray target posted out at 400 yards without binos, then we are good, if the targets are visible only because you can see the flash card above it and you are simply aiming under the card, your targets are technically not visible and therefor should have no penalty attached!

This is a sport or a game, you can define it either way. it is not real, it is a one way range. So competitive equity comes into play. I would almost stand for a rule where there is an upper limit to range. Yes many people do shoot rifles with scopes that would allow for 600 yard and longer shots. Most of the competitor pool cannot practice at those ranges, many have never had the opportunity to fire even one shot at 600 plus yards.

There are matches where precision shooting and finding your target is the name of the game, 3-Gun is NOT that game. We are a 'Run-N-Gun' sport, some short stuff, some middle stuff a bunch of medium long 250-300 and a couple shots out to maybe 400. After this you are now talking DM and Sniper match.

Maybe a side match might be offered for those that want to try their hand at especially long range targets and being able to locate targets spread out in a field with no markers, but it isn't 3GN, or any other brand of Multi-Gun I am aware of.

I'll now retreat to my bunker and done my flame suit.

Yes. For a NJ guy, you got it down good.