D.Hayden Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 What are the "great innovations" over the last 5 years? Scoring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) I really hate that my work computer will no longer allow me to copy pastes quotes or link quotes. But playing devils advocate, Brian I do believe that participation is driven into a division by Prize tables. And I'm not talking to the top pack 5%-10% shooters, they'll be fine, what I'm talking about is that 11%-35% croud. what I call the "prize table chaser group" Just good enough to get a good placement and get a decent item off the table. (glass or firearms). When you put +40 guns on one division table, but then only put 2 on other tables, and you have the prior knowledge of this happening what would you shoot? I like using myself as a example, took 2nd at FB3G last year, next to James. I believe we had only 14ish shooter in the division, FB3G is a HARD match to shoot limited in so I can understand the participation. This year? I'll be shooting Tac-ops. I'm not saying I'll be in the top 10, 20 or hell in the the top 30. And not saying I'm a prize table chaser, but how I look at is for the best return in investment when I've already shelled out a Grand of money to shoot this match, So I will shoot a division I don't really want to shoot because of it. Edited June 8, 2015 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I really hate that my work computer will no longer allow me to copy pastes quotes or link quotes. But playing devils advocate, Brian I do believe that participation is driven into a division by Prize tables. And I'm not talking to the top pack 5%-10% shooters, they'll be fine, what I'm talking about is that 11%-35% croud. what I call the "prize table chaser group" Just good enough to get a good placement and get a decent item off the table. (glass or firearms). When you put +40 guns on one division table, but then only put 2 on other tables, and you have the prior knowledge of this happening what would you shoot? I like using myself as a example, took 2nd at FB3G last year, next to James. I believe we had only 14ish shooter in the division, FB3G is a HARD match to shoot limited in so I can understand the participation. This year? I'll be shooting Tac-ops. I'm not saying I'll be in the top 10, 20 or hell in the the top 30. And not saying I'm a prize table chaser, but how I look at is for the best return in investment when I've already shelled out a Grand of money to shoot this match, So I will shoot a division I don't really want to shoot because of it. Aren't prizes allocated to tables based on the number of shooters in each division? Nobody should have prior knowledge, as it wouldn't be know until well after registration is closed. I believe that participation is driven by the rules for the typical competitor ( the club shooter). TacOp divisions draw the most because of ....well...OPTICS. Us old farts can't see targets past 100 or 200yds without magnification. Heavy Metal requires larger more expensive calibers and pumping your shotgun, and Open is perceived as a more expensive division to most people. Limited probably draws more of the 'prize chaser' group as the equipment is basic and the 'no optics=less people' theory. All of this BS is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) If someone's shooting limited to Prize chase they'll be very disappointed Only place I could even "see" it would be RM3G due to share prize table, but again your shooting against the guy up top, and those guys are VERY dedicated to shooting limited oh also your shooting 400 to 600 yards with a 1x scope... Edited June 8, 2015 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Limited has had the smallest prize table for a long time....it has the smallest group of shooters Most every major I have gone too is pretty good about dividing up the goodies between divisions. It still is a losers bet to expect much in Limited unless you are in the top 2 or 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I will say I was blown back how SMM3G this year did the limited table, the best I've ever seen them do to non Tac-op shooters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 WADR, prize tables, and the distribution thereof has nothing to do with rules. Show me a ruleset that mandates anything having to do with prize tables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 While not a "rule" per-se, there is a new trend in the 3-gun shooting community with which I take issue. Hot re-holstering is a horrible idea. I'm not sure why 3-Gun Nation thought it would be a good idea to allow this (in my opinion) unsafe action during matches, but it resulted in a guy shooting himself in the leg at a local match last month. With the popularity of 3-gun increasing at an exponential rate, the local shooting communities have a huge influx of new shooters. It's been my personal experience that many of these new competitors are not really trained, and in some cases, not all that familiar with their equipment. If you put them into a situation where a stage calls for a hot re-holster, that's just a recipe for eventual disaster. That particular action is one that REQUIRES training and intimate knowledge of your firearms/equipment and many of these new shooters just don't have it. That's not a dig against these guys in any way....it's just a straight-up fact. We were all there at one point or another in our shooting careers. We put rules in-place first and foremost to protect people against injury to themselves and others while at matches. It seems to me that the hot re-holster concept is counter-intuitive to the "spirit of the law" we all play by. Fortunately, in the case of last month's accident, it wasn't overly serious, and I believe the individual went home that night. I think only firearms with a manual safety should be re-holstered hot. Glock type firearms get an advantage at the dump bucket you just drop and run. Many times 2011 shooters re-holster hot so we don't run the risk of bumping the safety off... I think maybe a 12 round tube limit for the shotguns outside of open, not 8 that is just silly. 2 anywhere is great, we want to shoot fast but is has to at least touch the perf on a cardboard target Maybe some stage guidelines like uspsa for every 200 yard long course you need a fast and furious course... No more if you step out of the box or across this line before fully holstered DQ's If you are safe, no DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSnSC Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I like the "Production" division. This is what "Factory" should have been IMO. A lot of new guys show up with pump shotguns and 1911's. It gives them a place to play, other than HM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I like the "Production" division. This is what "Factory" should have been IMO. A lot of new guys show up with pump shotguns and 1911's. It gives them a place to play, other than HM. What about an AK47/74 division? Oversized long range steel for them perhaps. And a rimfire division? Light calibrated steel for those guys. I think it's ridiculous that everyone wants to build a new division around whatever new guys commonly have in the safe. A lot of new guys aren't in 3 gun to stay anyways, and most that end up sticking around have no problem buying the latest coolest gear as soon as they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I like the "Production" division. This is what "Factory" should have been IMO. A lot of new guys show up with pump shotguns and 1911's. It gives them a place to play, other than HM. What about an AK47/74 division? Oversized long range steel for them perhaps. And a rimfire division? Light calibrated steel for those guys. I think it's ridiculous that everyone wants to build a new division around whatever new guys commonly have in the safe. A lot of new guys aren't in 3 gun to stay anyways, and most that end up sticking around have no problem buying the latest coolest gear as soon as they can. Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I like the "Production" division. This is what "Factory" should have been IMO. A lot of new guys show up with pump shotguns and 1911's. It gives them a place to play, other than HM. What about an AK47/74 division? Oversized long range steel for them perhaps. And a rimfire division? Light calibrated steel for those guys. I think it's ridiculous that everyone wants to build a new division around whatever new guys commonly have in the safe. A lot of new guys aren't in 3 gun to stay anyways, and most that end up sticking around have no problem buying the latest coolest gear as soon as they can. That stuff is fine for the local matches. A local MD can create outlaw divisions, etc. to get new shooters a foothold. I let folks skip the shotgun, heck even shoot pistol only if they want. If it appeals to them, they get the right gear and play in the right pond. We had a guy show up with a 1911 and a pump shotgun to the MEGA stage match, he still had fun and will come back. I hate watering down and there are better solutions to get new shooters than more dilution. 3Gun is expensive and it is not for couch potatoes. There are other shooting sports people can play in as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 God forbid long range steel be large or close range steel fall easy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I've seen guys show up with weird stuff and be ALLOWED to shoot it where they like. I'm fine with that for a club match. Its just the desire to cater to it with new divisions or rule changes that bothers me. So I guess I agree with Mark above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSnSC Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Yeah what was I thinking? Screw them... Who wants to bother with new guys anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 God forbid long range steel be large or close range steel fall easy.... I am not sure I am fan of long range steel being large. Big enough to see but not too easy. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 For a 3-Gun Match no Rifle target should be less than 4moa. No pistol target should be less than 4". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 For a 3-Gun Match no Rifle target should be less than 4moa. No pistol target should be less than 4". CORRECT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 The bigger the targets the faster people can shoot. HOWEVER people bring their own problems to the game and give them too big of targets at any distance and they will inevitably disrespect it, go fast, throw misses, whatever you want to call it and they will screw it up. We all know we can make the hits but how FAST can we do it? Go go go! Everyone gets sucked into that trap sometimes. Big targets are fun for the guys at 50% and below and actually they make the Pros work harder to stay ahead of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 How small should slug targets be? Steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 This is fun. All I had to do was make an "AK47=inaccurate" joke and now I can sit back and watch people get their panties in a bunch about target sizes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 4" pistol target at what distance though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 How small should slug targets be? Steel. I believe it was discussed on another thread. Basically 4x the acceptable accuracy. 1moa Rifle times 4 = 4moa. Shotgun was 6moa times 4 = 24moa. I am sure someone will correct me if I got the slug calculations wrong. Either way that's what we use at our range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 16MOA or better sounds good to me for slug targets. And they should almost always have an option to engage it with the handgun. In fact, any target designated as a "single projectile" target (rifle or slug, basically) should have a handgun engagement option. Say 1 slug = 1 rifle = 2 handgun hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Wonder how a stage would work out if all paper and static steel were optional weapon...1 slug, 2 pistol, 3 rifle hits required...I might try that at a local match and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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