Nimitz Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 A RO is only there to try to double verify ...". BTW: this is not why we have ROs, we have them in order to ensure shooters safety execute shooting, try to prevent shooters from doing something unsafe if possible and stop a shooter if they engage in an unsafe activity. ROs are much more then backup safety mechanisms .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I don't like the flip/catch thing; we have a lot of newer shooters, too. Yesterday,one guy caught the round as it was flying by his head and over his shoulder, so you know the muzzle, while pointed downrange, was jerking around a lot. Most of the flip/catch guys I've seen are holding up progress. Focus is not on the task at hand. The RO is waiting for the shooter to finish playing with the ejected round and the ejected magazine that he is attempting to place back in the magazine carrier. So the shooter has three different things in his hands; two things - magazine and round - have to be stored before he can get back to the business at hand of showing clear and holstering. Nothing can be done. The time cannot be given to the scorekeeper. The "range clear" command is delayed. The RO is wasting time while the gun is still not cleared. I say drop the magazine on the ground; eject the round; show clear and holster so that everyone can resume doing their jobs; pick up your round and magazine; catch up with the RO as he is scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Riiiight. I've got my mag and round and showing clear before most ROs can get the range command out of their mouth. If in dropping everything your going to wait for me before you start scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 The time it takes to flip & catch is no different than any other ULSC procedure. Finish shooting, remove & stow magazine, flip & catch, re-open to double check chamber and hold for RO if they want to see it. That takes what, 3-5 sec? As opposed to any other way which is faster? It takes longer to say the actual commands. By the way once the CoF is over the RO can hold the timer behind their back while ULSC is going on, and the scorekeeper can just read it off aloud and enter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 While I do not like the flip and catch for prior stated reasons, the flip and catch at ULASC is not holding up a match by any stretch of the imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I've been a flip n catcher for sometime now and after I flip n catch I always grab the slide from the back and pull it back a second time for the RO to see and don't proceed until I hear him/her acknowledge a clear chamber ... never had an issue ... You must stand there a while. The ro never tells you the chamber is clear. Some RO's do acknowledge it by muttering 'good' or 'I see it' or whatever, especially when the shooter is holding the chamber open and waiting. But even just saying "if clear, HD&H" is pretty much an acknowledgment. I don't say that unless I see the empty chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I agree, I just don't see how there is any way in the world this "show boating" would slow down the whole ULSC procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I say drop the magazine on the ground; eject the round; show clear and holster so that everyone can resume doing their jobs; pick up your round and magazine; catch up with the RO as he is scoring. You can do that way if you want. There is no way I'm ever going to drop a clean magazine on the ground after the course of fire. Sorry if you think it slows things down, but I am not in a hurry during ULSC, and I shouldn't have to 'catch up with the RO' as he is scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Let's see, If you are fin......... Turn gun sideways while gripping slide Rack slide Catch loaded round Grip slide second time and pull open Stand still until RO says next command " If clear........" I don't see any time being wasted. It takes more time to find and pick up loaded round. BTW, "OK or good" are not range commands. If the RO is using them he either needs to go back to school or give up the timer. Uniformity is important. That's why we certify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaritx Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I have no problem with the flip and catch as long as it is done with muzzle safety. I do have a question about this style of unloading. I have always been taught that on 1911 or 2011 style pistols that it is not good to drop a slide without chambering a round?.......yet this "style" of unloading one is slamming the slide with the same force.....????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I have no problem with the flip and catch as long as it is done with muzzle safety. I do have a question about this style of unloading. I have always been taught that on 1911 or 2011 style pistols that it is not good to drop a slide without chambering a round?.......yet this "style" of unloading one is slamming the slide with the same force.....????? A stock recoil spring on a 1911 is what? 20#? I use an 8# recoil spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) I have always been taught that on 1911 or 2011 style pistols that it is not good to drop a slide without chambering a round?.......yet this "style" of unloading one is slamming the slide with the same force.....????? Wait, what? Even assuming that old wive's tale was true, I'm not just letting go of the slide. As a 50-ish person with normal reflexes, I have no trouble easing the slide forward and then catching the round. Edited August 11, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I've done it this way for a lot of years. Never had a problem. Only thing I try to get shooters to do is chamber a round from a mag. Dropping one in the chamber and closing the slide will screw up the tension on the extractor real quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Riiiight. I've got my mag and round and showing clear before most ROs can get the range command out of their mouth. If in dropping everything your going to wait for me before you start scoring. Um, no...... You can catch up, or send a delegate, or flip and catch safely...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Personally I do not like the Flip, Catch routine. I am sure that there have been a lot of uncalled DQs on people doing this. My 'routine' Droop the mag to my left and and pocket and then rack teh round out onto my hand, verify clear, shot the RO, point the gun downrange and drop the hammer. Then holster. I know it takes no more time and frankly is in my NSHO much safer than flip and catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Riiiight. I've got my mag and round and showing clear before most ROs can get the range command out of their mouth. If in dropping everything your going to wait for me before you start scoring.Um, no......You can catch up, or send a delegate, or flip and catch safely...... that is why I'll do what I have to do to be ready to go at range is clear. ROs don't want to wait for you to pick all your dropped gear before they go score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Personally I do not like the Flip, Catch routine. I am sure that there have been a lot of uncalled DQs on people doing this. My 'routine' Droop the mag to my left and and pocket and then rack teh round out onto my hand, verify clear, shot the RO, point the gun downrange and drop the hammer. Then holster. I know it takes no more time and frankly is in my NSHO much safer than flip and catch. You shot the RO?! you wrote: "verify clear, shot the RO," amazing how one little letter changes the whole meaning of the sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Cha-lee said it best a while back .... This is a big boy sport and we're all adults .... All the supposed "reasoning" behind not doing the flip and catch because it's unsafe is just noise ...Mike Seeklander, probably the most safety conscious and procedure instructor I've ever training with does it and doesn't think twice about it .... ( this is not meant to imply other top instructors are not any less safety minded) I assure you if someone does the flip and catch and violates a safety rule and is sent to Dairy Queen they will probably use a different technique next time .... Edited August 13, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Personally I do not like the Flip, Catch routine. I am sure that there have been a lot of uncalled DQs on people doing this. My 'routine' Droop the mag to my left and and pocket and then rack teh round out onto my hand, verify clear, shot the RO, point the gun downrange and drop the hammer. Then holster. I know it takes no more time and frankly is in my NSHO much safer than flip and catch. So.... based on nothing more than your speculation and opinion, I should not flip and catch. I should rack the round into my hand which based on my opinion and speculation is unsafe. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 #370 posts and going strong Been flippin and catchin for 30 years not stoppin now jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Riiiight. I've got my mag and round and showing clear before most ROs can get the range command out of their mouth. If in dropping everything your going to wait for me before you start scoring.Um, no......You can catch up, or send a delegate, or flip and catch safely...... that is why I'll do what I have to do to be ready to go at range is clear. ROs don't want to wait for you to pick all your dropped gear before they go score. Right -- because they have a stage to run, and keep on schedule, and they're working long hard days, so we can shoot..... You've got options -- and as long as you execute safely you're good. Just don't point the muzzle at yourself..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKJD Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I'm not cool enough to catch the round in the air and I'm smart enough to not cover the ejection port with my hand. I just let the round land on the ground then pick it up. I don't think the flip/catch is unsafe and it doesn't bother me but seeing someone cover the ejection port with their hand and eject the round into it makes me cringe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 You want to catch it, go for it. You tell me to catch it, all I'm going to do is repeat the command "unload and show clear." I know supercomp, HS-6, and Montana Gold are all expensive, but come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 (edited) I've been a flip n catcher for sometime now and after I flip n catch I always grab the slide from the back and pull it back a second time for the RO to see and don't proceed until I hear him/her acknowledge a clear chamber ... never had an issue ... like the others said. the responsibility is on the shooter, not the RO to ensure chamber is clear. the correct command is "if you are clear, hammer down, holster". this is because you are the one in control of the gun. They will certainly look, and stop you if they see something, but you need to check it yourself... I totally agree with your other points though. I also flip, catch, then pull back the slide and present empty chamber to the RO. and as your quoted cha-lee saying. we are all big boys. if people want to do it then go for it. if they get DQ'd doing it that's their own fault. Edited August 15, 2014 by BeerBaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 the correct command is "if you are clear, hammer down, holster". Actually the correct command is "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" Rule 8.3.7. (Sorry just took RO class that commands were drilled into us so we'd saw them correctly). I don't like the flip and catch thing but that's just me. It just bugs me when it happens but since it's permitted I just have to deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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