Ammo Catching @ match

[juan]

exactly what in the air is detonating these fltping rounds ?

or is it the ones not fliping that are detonating ?

[Chills1994]

Yes, the rulebook says "present" and "held open". How long is it to be held open for? Half a second. One second. Three seconds. Until the RO acknowledges that the chamber is empty?

The answer to that question is in the rulebook. Hold it open until you get the next command -- what's so hard about that?

Is that really what the rulebook says?

Does the rulebook really say "the competitor must hold the slide open until the Range Officer issues the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command"?

[mjohn]

Yes, the rulebook says "present" and "held open". How long is it to be held open for? Half a second. One second. Three seconds. Until the RO acknowledges that the chamber is empty?

The answer to that question is in the rulebook. Hold it open until you get the next command -- what's so hard about that?

Is that really what the rulebook says?

Does the rulebook really say "the competitor must hold the slide open until the Range Officer issues the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command"?

Well............................you can't proceed to the next step until the RO issuses the next command, so.............therefore, you must hold the slide open until "If clear, hammer down, holster" command" is issued,

[Steve RA]

It's hard to let the hammer down while holding the slide open.

[Chills1994]

How many times have you seen a shooter zip through the unload and show clear, hammer down holster part way before the RO even issues the commands?

The slide was held open during the flip and catch. Guess you missed it, huh?

Edited October 20, 2013 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

Yes, the rulebook says "present" and "held open". How long is it to be held open for? Half a second. One second. Three seconds. Until the RO acknowledges that the chamber is empty?

The answer to that question is in the rulebook. Hold it open until you get the next command -- what's so hard about that?

Is that really what the rulebook says?

Does the rulebook really say "the competitor must hold the slide open until the Range Officer issues the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command"?

Well............................you can't proceed to the next step until the RO issuses the next command, so.............therefore, you must hold the slide open until "If clear, hammer down, holster" command" is issued,

Where does it say that the shooter must wait, or that the RO must confirm that there is an empty chamber?

Why do you think the next command is worded the way it is: "IFFFFFFFF?????? CLEAR, hammer down, holster."?

100% of the onus for having an empty gun is on the shooter.

Guess what happens if there is a BANG! after "if clear, hammer down, holster."

[Nik Habicht]

Yes, the rulebook says "present" and "held open". How long is it to be held open for? Half a second. One second. Three seconds. Until the RO acknowledges that the chamber is empty?

The answer to that question is in the rulebook. Hold it open until you get the next command -- what's so hard about that?

Is that really what the rulebook says?

Does the rulebook really say "the competitor must hold the slide open until the Range Officer issues the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command"?

What is not clear about "If you are finished, unload and show clear?" Want to tell me with a straight face that the rule is not written that way so that the RO can get a look at the chamber? And if that's the intent, isn't it crystal clear that the only way that you will know that the RO has had sufficient time to see what he needs to see, is by waiting for the next command?

I've been doing this ROing thing for only about a decade now, and in that entire time I've asked maybe a dozen people to please show clear a second time. It's weird, but in my neck of the woods, most competitors simply seem to get it......

The command requires that you show clear. If you elect not to, or to rush me, don't be surprised if I issue other range commands as necessary, to ensure that I can eventually get to the point of saying "Range is Clear." It won't be personal; it'll just be me taking care of business....

[Nik Habicht]

How many times have you seen a shooter zip through the unload and show clear, hammer down holster part way before the RO even issues the commands?

The slide was held open during the flip and catch. Guess you missed it, huh?

Guess I did. So what do you plan on doing if I repeat: "Unload and Show Clear."

You've got two options -- comply to the RO's satisfaction, or face a match DQ under 10.6.1 -- because there's no way that isn't a reasonable request.....

[Nik Habicht]

Yes, the rulebook says "present" and "held open". How long is it to be held open for? Half a second. One second. Three seconds. Until the RO acknowledges that the chamber is empty?

The answer to that question is in the rulebook. Hold it open until you get the next command -- what's so hard about that?

Is that really what the rulebook says?

Does the rulebook really say "the competitor must hold the slide open until the Range Officer issues the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command"?

Well............................you can't proceed to the next step until the RO issuses the next command, so.............therefore, you must hold the slide open until "If clear, hammer down, holster" command" is issued,

Where does it say that the shooter must wait, or that the RO must confirm that there is an empty chamber?

Why do you think the next command is worded the way it is: "IFFFFFFFF?????? CLEAR, hammer down, holster."?

100% of the onus for having an empty gun is on the shooter.

Guess what happens if there is a BANG! after "if clear, hammer down, holster."

It's worded that way so a shooter can't weasel his/her way out of a DQ, by whining that the RO didn't do his job.......

And as far as where does it say that -- it doesn't, but any fool with 6th grade reading comprehension could understand that......

.....and I know it's covered in the RO course, and probably was when you took it....

[Chills1994]

Yes, the rulebook says "present" and "held open". How long is it to be held open for? Half a second. One second. Three seconds. Until the RO acknowledges that the chamber is empty?

The answer to that question is in the rulebook. Hold it open until you get the next command -- what's so hard about that?

Is that really what the rulebook says?

Does the rulebook really say "the competitor must hold the slide open until the Range Officer issues the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command"?

Well............................you can't proceed to the next step until the RO issuses the next command, so.............therefore, you must hold the slide open until "If clear, hammer down, holster" command" is issued,

Where does it say that the shooter must wait, or that the RO must confirm that there is an empty chamber?

Why do you think the next command is worded the way it is: "IFFFFFFFF?????? CLEAR, hammer down, holster."?

100% of the onus for having an empty gun is on the shooter.

Guess what happens if there is a BANG! after "if clear, hammer down, holster."

It's worded that way so a shooter can't weasel his/her way out of a DQ, by whining that the RO didn't do his job.......

And as far as where does it say that -- it doesn't, but any fool with 6th grade reading comprehension could understand that......

.....and I know it's covered in the RO course, and probably was when you took it....

Sheesh, 10.6.1 DQ, really?

Don't you think that is kind of a stretch?

Point me to anywhere in this thread where if I was asked by an RO, again, or for a second time, "If finished, unload, and show clear." that I would not comply.

I never once said that an RO could not issue the "If you are finished, unload and show clear" command again.

As far as it not being in the rulebook, spelled out word for word, where you would rather rely on "reading comprehension", I know another shooting sport that seems to rely heavily on what other people's interpretation of the "spirit of the rules", too.

For all you chest thumping anti-flipping RO's, I am still waiting for your re-write of 8.3.6 and 8.3.7 .

Edited October 20, 2013 by Chills1994

[steel1212]

Funny thing happened to me yesterday at a major IDPA match. Shot my stage and went through the unload and show clear. Flip my round and caught it. Before I could hold the slide back during that the SO issued the show clear command again, remember I always show clear she just got ahead of me, wasn't mean she just wanted to see a clear chamber. Had to hold it looooow so she could see in it though ;-) I don't have a issue with the RO/SO wanting to see a clear chamber. I have a issue with the RO/SO wanting to teach me a lesson because I flip my round.

[Chills1994]

Funny thing happened to me yesterday at a major IDPA match. Shot my stage and went through the unload and show clear. Flip my round and caught it. Before I could hold the slide back during that the SO issued the show clear command again, remember I always show clear she just got ahead of me, wasn't mean she just wanted to see a clear chamber. Had to hold it looooow so she could see in it though ;-) I don't have a issue with the RO/SO wanting to see a clear chamber. I have a issue with the RO/SO wanting to teach me a lesson because I flip my round.

Exactly!

which has kinda been my point since 2011 when this thread first came about.

and all round flipping and catching issues aside, just in general, if you consider how much is riding on...or rather what can possibly be riding on if the competitor's gun goes BANG! after "if clear, hammer down, holster", I am really surprised that the 8.3.6 and 8.3.7 haven't been re-written already with much more explicit or detailed language.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Chills1994

[outerlimits]

A long time ago, a guy named Dave Stanford told me as an RO, you are responsible for ensuring that gun is clear. I do that every time I run a shooter and always will. Flip to yer hearts content, but I will always make sure the gun is clear, my way. And that means I have to see an empty chamber. Pretty simple, eh?

[Chills1994]

Whatever floats your boat.

But to go all Body Snatchers:

"FLIPPER!"

"FLIPPERS DESERVE TO BE DQ'ed!"

Herp derp is over the top.

Again, if you really want to see an empty chamber, then email your AD or petition the BoD to make the range command

"If you are finished, unload, and show an empty chamber". ... "the chamber is clear, hammer down, holster."

Pretty simple, eh?

Edited October 20, 2013 by Chills1994

[Sarge]

Shot a match today with an accomplished flipper. No big deal as he always shows clear after. BUT we had a first time shooter on our squad. Guess what he just had to try on the last stage? Yes, he flipped it and tried to catch it. He was looking everywhere but at the gun. Got very close to losing situational awareness with the muzzle and his hand but he managed to make it out alive and safe. My response? That is a very bad habit, don't do that.

[steel1212]

Kevin love ya to death but I would think the bad habit is not paying attention to his gun.

[The Antichrome]

...as an RO, you are responsible for ensuring that gun is clear...

So, if the hammer is dropped and the gun goes 'bang' the RO takes the DQ instead of the shooter?

After all, its his responsibility.

Flipping and showing clear are two completely different issues.

[Sarge]

Kevin love ya to death but I would think the bad habit is not paying attention to his gun.

likewise. Agreed, but I also hate to see first timers emulating those who have been flipping for 5 years or more. Maybe it's not as much a bad habit as it is a habit that serves no meaningful purpose?

[steel1212]

Yeah but to me it no different than the same guy trying to pull off a one second draw and putting a hole way to close to his foot, or going up range fast and not understanding what the experienced shooters are doing and why and breaking the 180. There are just something's the new shooter shouldn't do but that doesn't mean that it's unsafe for me to do so.

[Sarge]

Agreed.

[Jadeslade]

You ever RO Rob or Taran? They both cover the ejection port and roll the gun over as they are doing it and then show clear. I've asked them both to show me in slow motion what they do. Seems hunky dory to me. Jessie flipped it throughout the US IPSC match. I did not see one RO object or say anything, except when one RO whom we all know decided he needed to tell Kaci about the 180. Which she never came close to. Some times more experienced shooters are just that. It's not showing off, it's not not anything except how they do it. Don't assume that you know what people are thinking. It's kind of like watching Eric make ready. Nap time. I love RO's and the effort they put in, I've learned so much from talking to Adrie de Bot and Marco at the Florida Open and various IPSC matches over the years. Just because you have become a CRO in three years means nothing. It's kind of like the Supreme Court guy who said "I can't describe obscenity, but I know it when I see it". My newest gun is black on black, and it is hard for me to see clear, so I stopped rolling and flipping because the fastest way to get done is to just get that slide back and show the the RO the chamber, which is also black. Then we are both happy!

[Jadeslade]

Kevin love ya to death but I would think the bad habit is not paying attention to his gun.

likewise. Agreed, but I also hate to see first timers emulating those who have been flipping for 5 years or more. Maybe it's not as much a bad habit as it is a habit that serves no meaningful purpose?

Kevin love ya to death but I would think the bad habit is not paying attention to his gun.

likewise. Agreed, but I also hate to see first timers emulating those who have been flipping for 5 years or more. Maybe it's not as much a bad habit as it is a habit that serves no meaningful purpose?

Smoking is a meaningless habit but I have yet to see a soldier in combat who refuses a cigarette. Meaningless habits to you may be tribal rituals to someone else.

[outerlimits]

...as an RO, you are responsible for ensuring that gun is clear...

So, if the hammer is dropped and the gun goes 'bang' the RO takes the DQ instead of the shooter?

After all, its his responsibility.

that is lame...of course not. when you've done it this long, you make sure, period. i venture to guess your entire squad feels comfortable with you walking around after a stage because the RO was sure yer gun was clear, not cause you said it was.

[latech15]

How do you know that a gun is clear? Do out only know that it is clear if you SEE the empty chamber?

If you see a shooter remove the mag, flip and catch the round, and drop the hammer, all without you actually looking into the chamber, can you agree that the gun is clear? If the responsibility for the gun being clear falls on the shooter, why is it widely understood that the RO has to SEE the empty chamber?

In my opinion, if I see the above stated actions, I consider my inspection to be complete and I move on to "if clear......"

I don't have a problem with the RO's who want to see the chamber. I flip and then hold it open until the RO is satisfied. I don't move at all until they give me the next command. But it is a courtesy instead of something that I understand the rule book compels me to do.

The first issue that I have is with the RO's who like to teach shooters a lesson (as stated before). The other problem that I have is on threads like this where there is always someone who has a friend of a friend who saw a round detonate while flipping, except it wasn't flipping. It was done while the shooter was cupping the ejection port racking into his hand. That action is exponentially more dangerous than flipping, yet flipping is the one that always gets threads like this.

[The Antichrome]

...as an RO, you are responsible for ensuring that gun is clear...

So, if the hammer is dropped and the gun goes 'bang' the RO takes the DQ instead of the shooter?

After all, its his responsibility.

that is lame...of course not. when you've done it this long, you make sure, period. i venture to guess your entire squad feels comfortable with you walking around after a stage because the RO was sure yer gun was clear, not cause you said it was.

After seeing the round flipped out, seeing the open chamber (I always hold the chamber open as long the RO would like it to be open, if he wants it re-opened, fine) then seeing the hammer dropped and the now uncocked gun securely holstered...I'd say the squad should be reasonably assured that my gun is as safe as its gonna get. None of which has anything to do with flipping and catching. Its the shooters responsibility...the RO is there to verify the process. The hammer drop is the final verification.

I think that having the muzzle pointed in a safe direction during the trigger pull phase is a much more important factor than flipping.