Gary Stevens Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Ok, let me try to clear the air in a non-official NROI ruling sort of way. Do the safety mechanism produced by the factory work on your gun? Trigger jobs are allowed, if they do not disable a safety device. What else are you concerned about? 3/09 INTERPRETATION: Because internal modifications are currently very difficult to enforce, NROI now deems that this clause means “INTERNAL modifications which do NOT conflict with other clauses of this appendix are NOW ALLOWED. 3/09 INTERPRETATION - INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket parts. Special Notes/Clarifications: n Springs, strikers, sears, connector/disconnectors, and any other part which is NOT visible when the gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise prohibited in these provisions (see section 22 for specific prohibitions). Section 22 speaks of internal safety items. Edited March 10, 2009 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Maybe I'm missing something You and Vince quite clearly both are. In your case, you're reading all the warnings about not "twisting" the rules into something they aren't, and then not reading the actual rules. In the Interpretation document, 21.1: '3/09 INTERPRETATION: Because internal modifications are currently very difficult to enforce, NROI now deems that this clause means “INTERNAL modifications which do NOT conflict with other clauses of this appendix are NOW ALLOWED."' Everything in the supporting documentation (the BOD statement, the FAQ) points right back at Appendix D4 and the Interpretation thereof. This is the definitive language of the rule, not the supporting stuff you quoted. Unless the modification in question may in some way violate another part of the D4 Appendix, it is de facto legal by this rule. If you want it all boiled down, it comes down to this - the BOD is saying "Any internal mods that we can't see, and don't do things like alter the functioning of the safeties on the gun, mill out the inside of the slide, etc, are legal. There is a limited set of externally visible modifications allowed, and they are listed. Anything that doesn't fit into those categories (for instance, relocating an externally visible pin on a Glock trigger and making it appear as if it hadn't been done), is something you better get an official ruling on before you go using it in a match." I would have thought FAQ #2 would have answered any concerns about internal modifications. By the rules, if you want to know if a given internal modification is legal or not, you simply run it down the rest of the clauses in Appendix D4. If its an internal modification (that is, not visible on the outside of the gun when the gun is in battery), and it doesn't violate the rest of the Appendix, it is specifically allowed in 21.1. That's exactly what the rule quotation above says... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 What he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmbr45 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I have to commend the BOD for their hard work. These new rules seem pretty clear and straight forward. Personally, I am happy to see that my IDPA production gun (M&P with a Burwell trigger job) will be compliant with USPSA rules. I'm not sure how much of a consideration this "inter-compliance" between the two sports was in the development process, but it is appreciated. Well done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I certainly appreciate all the hard work that went into this. But I have to wonder how long it will be before there is a new Stock Division with rules along the lines of the original definition that strictly limits modifications to buffed OEM parts. In 2000, the Production Division was created to be a division for stock pistols with very limited modifications allowed. The first iteration of the rules attempted to lay out the boundaries of permitted modifications... Reason I ask is that, with the exception of magwells, Production now looks a lot like Limited 10 minor. Not complaining mind you, just making an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Reason I ask is that, with the exception of magwells, Production now looks a lot like Limited 10 minor.Not complaining mind you, just making an observation. And your point is? And what makes Limited 10 different from Limited? Just the magazines used. Well, a few other things besides magwells set Production apart. But, yes, the fact that all guns are scored minor is what really sets Production apart from other divisions. And it's one of the main reasons I often shoot Prod. The emphasis on accuracy and putting all guns on a level (more or less) playing field. I don't care how "stock" anyone wants to make it. As soon as a new shooter is "hooked", he wants to start tinkering with his equipment to improve his performance. If we really had a box stock division, with no modifications allowed, I'm afraid it would be short lived. No one would want to compete in it after their first match or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 I would like to thank those involved in this much needed re-write of the Production Division rules. The only negative I have is in the opening statements, to put the blame on the shooters it isn't needed, there was a failure on USPSA's part also. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 with the exception of magwells, Production now looks a lot like Limited 10 minor. No single action triggers, IMO, is a primary defining difference between the two.. Under the new rules...and the old...Production remains a place where budget service-type pistols can play on a level field. The new rules finally clarify the reasonable level of modifications permitted to tune the pistol to the shooter...without breaking the bank. It goes without saying that the majority of us seem pleased and relieved with the final result. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 21.6 - Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods) 3/09 INTERPRETATION - INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket parts. Special Notes/Clarifications: Springs, strikers, sears, connector/disconnectors, and any other part which is NOT visible when the gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise prohibited in these provisions (see section 22 for specific prohibitions). I didn't read this very clearly in my stupor this morning. I agree that this covers what I was questioning earlier. Thanks for tolerating my confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 21.6 - Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods)3/09 INTERPRETATION - INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket parts. Special Notes/Clarifications: Springs, strikers, sears, connector/disconnectors, and any other part which is NOT visible when the gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise prohibited in these provisions (see section 22 for specific prohibitions). I didn't read this very clearly in my stupor this morning. I agree that this covers what I was questioning earlier. Thanks for tolerating my confusion. And mine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciscoip Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Kind of illogical that SP-01 Shadows don't have to have firing pin block safeties and the cheaper regular SP-01s do. Overall, it's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Kind of illogical that SP-01 Shadows don't have to have firing pin block safeties and the cheaper regular SP-01s do.Overall, it's better. they are different models..specifically approved for the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I would like to thank those involved in this much needed re-write of the Production Division rules. The only negative I have is in the opening statements, to put the blame on the shooters it isn't needed, there was a failure on USPSA's part also.Rich REAL glad to here your response Rich. And I agree the "tone" is a little parochial. Maybe they'll fix it before the new rule book is printed. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 with the exception of magwells, Production now looks a lot like Limited 10 minor. No single action triggers, IMO, is a primary defining difference between the two.. Under the new rules...and the old...Production remains a place where budget service-type pistols can play on a level field. The new rules finally clarify the reasonable level of modifications permitted to tune the pistol to the shooter...without breaking the bank. It goes without saying that the majority of us seem pleased and relieved with the final result. Curtis You're exactly right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splashdown Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 OK, something I was wondering, as an RO. Can a guy shoot a Glock 19 with Glock 17 mags? I don't see anything against it in the rule book other than "must fit the box". However, under the Production Division FAQ, #18 says " all magazines must be dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun." Where does that quote come from? Is that an official ruling? Thanks for working so hard on this Bruce, et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck223 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Is it my imagination, or does this pull USPSA further away from the IPSC rule book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Is it my imagination, or does this pull USPSA further away from the IPSC rule book? Is adding an inch or two to a mile significant in terms of an overall distance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Is it my imagination, or does this pull USPSA further away from the IPSC rule book? The USPSA and IPSC rulebooks are completely separate already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 OK, something I was wondering, as an RO. Can a guy shoot a Glock 19 with Glock 17 mags? Sure he can. As long as it's understood they're shooting in Open...minor. My reasoning? Not much of a reach IMO. Does the G19 look like that in it's stock configuration? No, sorry. Open gun. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciscoip Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Kind of illogical that SP-01 Shadows don't have to have firing pin block safeties and the cheaper regular SP-01s do.Overall, it's better. they are different models..specifically approved for the division. That's simply restating the rule, not an explanation for the reasoning behind the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Kind of illogical that SP-01 Shadows don't have to have firing pin block safeties and the cheaper regular SP-01s do.Overall, it's better. they are different models..specifically approved for the division. That's simply restating the rule, not an explanation for the reasoning behind the decision. they are different guns.. the Shadow is incapable of having a FPB because the slide is not designed to have one. there is no tunnel to install the block. so it's not that it doesn't have to have one. its more like it can't have one. the SP01 was designed with the block. there is no SP01 or SP01 Tactical that is delivered that way from the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) OK, something I was wondering, as an RO. Can a guy shoot a Glock 19 with Glock 17 mags? Sure he can. As long as it's understood they're shooting in Open...minor. My reasoning? Not much of a reach IMO. Does the G19 look like that in it's stock configuration? No, sorry. Open gun. Jim The new "clarification" doesn't remove the current rules, it only adds to them, correct? If so: 7 Maximum size Handgun and all magazines (revolvers are exempt) Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm) ----------------------------- 8 Maximum magazine length See # 7 ----------------------------- 9 Maximum ammunition capacity Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal ------------------------- If a Glock 19 with a Glock 17 magazine stuck in it will fit the "BOX", then there should be no problem. http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2008HandgunRulesindexed.pdf See Appendix D4 Edited March 11, 2009 by GeorgeInNePa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Well I am glad it finally puts to rest the question on connectors on Glocks. That was the only thing that concerned me. Nothing else to me really changed. it seemed to only help most shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 It also seems (to me) to say that, while JA's replies to questions asked are authoritative opinions, at least for Production Division, they are not definitive interpretations until posted on the USPSA website, or in Front Sight. With that in mind, I've already asked him about a couple things, but may have to go ahead and retrofit my Glock mags to factory configuration pending the definitive publication of his responses, even if they go my way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Thanks to all for getting these issues ironed out! I guess I didn't HAVE to buy a new M&P Pro to be legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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