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Production review


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Production Division Board Statement (Presented for a 30 day comment period)

Production Division Board Statement

http://www.uspsa.org/members/stmts/Product...)%20v090308.htm

Production Division NROI Rulings

http://www.uspsa.org/members/stmts/Product...)%20v090308.htm

Production Division FAQ

http://www.uspsa.org/members/stmts/Product...)%20v090308.htm

Edited by eerw
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So if I read correctly,as a Glock shooter, I can use an aftermarket connector (a listed/approved mod) but I cannot bend or cut the spring tab or drill a new hole for the trigger spring to sit in (not specifically approved).

If I read correctly, those smiths who weld pieces together or otherwise mod a trigger assembly cannot do it, even if it is internal and unseen (not specifically listed).

So pretty much a clarification that if is not specifically listed it is not allowed, tand no amount of interpretation will make it so.

Edited by vluc
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Actually #2 on the FAQs

2) In the new interpretation, I can modify or replace internal parts. May I remove parts or add new ones?

ANSWER: In general, YES. For example, you may drill a hole and add a screw inside the gun to provide an overtravel stop. However, removal or addition of parts is PROHIBITED if such removal or addition conflicts with a clause in Appendix D4 or a published NROI interpretation. For example, adding a part which can be seen from outside the gun when it is in battery would make your gun illegal for use in USPSA Production Division. Similarly, removing part of a safety mechanism would make your gun illegal for use in USPSA Production Division.

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Actually #2 on the FAQs

2) In the new interpretation, I can modify or replace internal parts. May I remove parts or add new ones?

ANSWER: In general, YES. For example, you may drill a hole and add a screw inside the gun to provide an overtravel stop. However, removal or addition of parts is PROHIBITED if such removal or addition conflicts with a clause in Appendix D4 or a published NROI interpretation. For example, adding a part which can be seen from outside the gun when it is in battery would make your gun illegal for use in USPSA Production Division. Similarly, removing part of a safety mechanism would make your gun illegal for use in USPSA Production Division.

Thanks, but it still seems vague. I can modify, but can't remove parts save for drilling a hole, so cutting the tab is out but drilling a hole is in. So can I cut the trigger bar apart to shorten it, then put it back together and that is okay?

I kind of think we have some additional clarity but still some vagaries that can be exploited. Sharpen minds than mine will figure it out.

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I thought it was pretty clear..but I don't know all the guns.

seems to say..you can change what's inside..OEM or aftermarket, not visible from the outside when gun in battery and does not disable a safety device.

I think they did a pretty good job. it needs to be an official ruling, not an emailed OK, and burden is on the proof of the shooter.

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I like as well, there is greater clarity throughout and that is needed. I ask the questions as a re-read of the 29 page thread had these as some of the issues that were brought up.

IIRC it was the interpretation of the rules with the assumption that if it was not specifically prohibited it was allowed that got us here. Now we have the if it is not specifically stated it is not allowed. Clarity, but I needed to see if I was the only one who saw a particular point.

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If there is still something that is vague, submitting a request to DNROI and getting an official ruling should clear up any vagueness up

Thanks, Alan. Playing the DA a bit! :devil:

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I think everyone who worked on this in anyway would say thank you. As I have said before the search for the perfect is the enemy of the good. While this is not perfect, I believe it is a good document and puts us far down the road from where we were.

I was happy to vote for this, and feel comfortable with it. There are a few items that we just couldn't make crystal clear, but we will work through them one way or the other. Things like guns dropping firing pin blocks at some time along the production run. Things like guns being produced with and without parts but a hole is left where the part would have been. All these things are just going to have to run their course. I am confident we will make it happen.

Gary

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I have my popcorn ready. This should be good :devil:

Thanks again for your efforts and others on the BOD. Well done. Looks like we (they) have a 30 day review period to make little tweaks? Smart idea.

Jim

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I'm sorry, I need clarification. I don't mean to be a horse's ass, but sometimes (more often than not) am. From the NROI interpretation document:

External modifications continue to be strictly constrained to items specifically listed below.

Some specific classes of internal modifications are now specifically allowed, but in general internal modifications remain constrained to items specifically listed.

If a conflict appears to exist between these general statements and the listed details, below, the specifics listed in the notes and clarifications below shall be deemed definitive.

So I read that it has to be specifically stated, then I see that an internal mod is allowed as long as it is not visible (FAQ's).

So I cut the tab on my Glock trigger and relocate the spring, none of which is listed as an approved mod and none of which can be seen when the gun is in battery. It is "okay" to use until someone challenges me and I have to explain where in the rules it says I can do this, correct? The onus is on me to explain. So I run all season this way, say I win some good matches, then get called on it and cannot show where it says I can do it. Oops, my bad and I get moved to Open??

Is it or is it not okay to cut the tab and relocate the trigger spring in a Glock?

Is it or is it not okay to bend the trigger tab?

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From the FAQ's

31) Why was this new interpretation created?

ANSWER: Competitors were making flawed assumptions about what the rules “mean”, and the USPSA Board felt it was important to provide as much detail and clarity to the matter as possible.

This is my only issue. Blame was put ALL on us......the Competitors

I don't guess that vagueness of the written rules had anything to provoke why we are here.

Other than that.....pretty clear to me and I'm glad to see the new clarifications and rulings come to fruition.

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Excellent, authoritative and in keeping with the overall concept of the Production division that the majority of Production competitors hold, IMO. Good work to all concerned and our thanks. :cheers:

I particularly like the adroit handling of the issue of having competitors responisble to tear down their own guns to prove they are legal...excellent solution, and couldn't be handled more appropriately. Bravo!

In all the documents the only slight fuzziness thing I could find was the following:

"Frames and slides may be refinished for cosmetic purposes only, and the finish cannot result in a competitive advantage. Any finish which is deemed to provide a competitive advantage – for example, a roughened texture in an area where grip tape is not allowed – would make your gun a “new/unapproved model” which would not be legal for use in USPSA Production Division."

All the rest of the language was very precise: to my read, this seems to open a little hole of opportunity for someone to claim they could add a "roughened texture" finish in areas where grip tape IS allowed. If that is legal, it would be best to state so directly, that a roughened finish IS allowed, but only in these areas.

Yep, Gary, it was worth waiting for and seems to have answered nearly every issue raised in the voluminous threads we've had here on this issue...and done so in a very common sense way that will make the issue of modifications easy to understand AND enforce.

Curtis

EDITED: because I HATE typos!

Edited by BayouSlide
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From the FAQ's

31) Why was this new interpretation created?

ANSWER: Competitors were making flawed assumptions about what the rules “mean”, and the USPSA Board felt it was important to provide as much detail and clarity to the matter as possible.

This is my only issue. Blame was put ALL on us......the Competitors

I don't guess that vagueness of the written rules had anything to provoke why we are here.

Other than that.....pretty clear to me and I'm glad to see the new clarifications and rulings come to fruition.

I saw this as well and see what you mean, oobullit, but I'm willing, more than willing, to take all the blame...personally if need be...if it means that we've finally buried this whole can of worms.

I'm magnanimous in that way :D

Curtis

Edited by BayouSlide
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I know you were speaking of USPSA when you used the word "you" and not just me. I can't tell you much back and forth went on as we worked on this set of documents. Fortunately it was done in a professional manner by listening to each other and attempting to make persuasive arguments to convince someone.

As to it being easy to enforce, I hope so, but only time will tell.

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Is it or is it not okay to cut the tab and relocate the trigger spring in a Glock?

Is it or is it not okay to bend the trigger tab?

My interpretation. Yes. As long as the modification does not result in visible changes to the stock gun. And the factory safeties function normally. Shoot 'em up.

Jim

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Is it or is it not okay to cut the tab and relocate the trigger spring in a Glock?

Is it or is it not okay to bend the trigger tab?

My interpretation. Yes. As long as the modification does not result in visible changes to the stock gun. And the factory safeties function normally. Shoot 'em up.

Jim

So is the trigger job Rich is doing at Canyon Creek on our XDm 's going to be legal?

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Is it or is it not okay to cut the tab and relocate the trigger spring in a Glock?

Is it or is it not okay to bend the trigger tab?

My interpretation. Yes. As long as the modification does not result in visible changes to the stock gun. And the factory safeties function normally. Shoot 'em up.

Jim

Jim,

Not trying to stir the pot, but the only interpretations that are official are the ones issues by DNROI and approved by the BoD.

Alan

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