GentlemanJim Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I dont shoot production but I can see quite a fair amount of work went into this...and I bet it was a real booger ! All I can say is THANKS for your hard work and efforts!! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Is it or is it not okay to cut the tab and relocate the trigger spring in a Glock?Is it or is it not okay to bend the trigger tab? My interpretation. Yes. As long as the modification does not result in visible changes to the stock gun. And the factory safeties function normally. Shoot 'em up. Jim So is the trigger job Rich is doing at Canyon Creek on our XDm 's going to be legal? Yep. If the above applies to your XD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 From the FAQ's31) Why was this new interpretation created? ANSWER: Competitors were making flawed assumptions about what the rules “mean”, and the USPSA Board felt it was important to provide as much detail and clarity to the matter as possible. This is my only issue. Blame was put ALL on us......the Competitors I don't guess that vagueness of the written rules had anything to provoke why we are here. Other than that.....pretty clear to me and I'm glad to see the new clarifications and rulings come to fruition. that was my initial feeling as well; Like a scolding was coming down. Oh well, not the first time Ive been scolded. I am happy with the interpretation, and I greatly apppreciate the work that out reps put into this. Thanks BOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagger02 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Not sure if he has to remove any safety. I think the XDm released the firing pin when the barrel is removed. But not sure, didn't get enough time to play with the gun before I sent it to RIch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Actually #2 on the FAQs2) In the new interpretation, I can modify or replace internal parts. May I remove parts or add new ones? ANSWER: In general, YES. For example, you may drill a hole and add a screw inside the gun to provide an overtravel stop. However, removal or addition of parts is PROHIBITED if such removal or addition conflicts with a clause in Appendix D4 or a published NROI interpretation. For example, adding a part which can be seen from outside the gun when it is in battery would make your gun illegal for use in USPSA Production Division. Similarly, removing part of a safety mechanism would make your gun illegal for use in USPSA Production Division. I hate to assume anything, but I'm reading this that it is also legal to weld on the frame to limit overtravel. That was done to my M&P, as well as trimming of the striker. None of this is visible externally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 From the NROI interpretation document:... ... So I read that it has to be specifically stated, then I see that an internal mod is allowed as long as it is not visible (FAQ's). As long as it is not visible or otherwise contra-indicated by other statements in the section, yes (visibility isn't the only thing...) So I cut the tab on my Glock trigger and relocate the spring, none of which is listed as an approved mod and none of which can be seen when the gun is in battery. It is "okay" to use until someone challenges me and I have to explain where in the rules it says I can do this, correct? The onus is on me to explain. So I run all season this way, say I win some good matches, then get called on it and cannot show where it says I can do it. Oops, my bad and I get moved to Open?? Is it an internal modification to a part? (yes) Is it externally visible when the gun is in battery? (no) Does it affect the operation of any of the gun's safeties? (no) Its covered and allowed. Don't try to read more into it than is there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 So, this also appears to put a dent in some CZ trigger jobs, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr2e Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 So, this also appears to put a dent in some CZ trigger jobs, eh? ARRRGGGHHH!!! yes it does! (as he searches around for the parts to make all better... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 So, this also appears to put a dent in some CZ trigger jobs, eh? not really.. taking the FPB out is the easy way on guns with it.. the Shadow and the 85 Combat don't have the FPB as does a CZ75 (pre . so those triggers are super easy. but I can take one with a firing block get the DA pull to 5.25#, short reset and light off all primers all day long.. you don't scare me Dave!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 you don't scare me Dave!! Not tryin' to, Stu I heard through the grapevine that some folks tend to yank the FPB parts as normal part of the course of a trigger job, these days, so... It occurred to me that those parts might go up in price due to demand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Don't try to read more into it than is there.... That's what got us here in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 you don't scare me Dave!! Not tryin' to, Stu I heard through the grapevine that some folks tend to yank the FPB parts as normal part of the course of a trigger job, these days, so... It occurred to me that those parts might go up in price due to demand! Yep, yank and toss. Useless parts. The "B" design only came about to satiate some BATF import regs. You can still get the 85 Combat which has an adjustable rear sight and no FPB. The adjustable sight lets the 85 Combat fall under different BATF regs. I used to have links to all the discussion on CZ forums and the regs but I've lost them. I'm sure if you wanted you could dig them up on that forum. I went to shooting Open... It was easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 So, this also appears to put a dent in some CZ trigger jobs, eh? Looks like my old-style SP-01 got caught on these revision; and just when I was starting to get the hang of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Good job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 So, this also appears to put a dent in some CZ trigger jobs, eh? Looks like my old-style SP-01 got caught on these revision; and just when I was starting to get the hang of it. CY..I should be able to set you up..let me know.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob D Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 The BOD did an awesome job on this. It's very specific, and it concretes a lot of things. Thanks to all you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 CY..I should be able to set you up..let me know.. Thanks man, I really appreciate that! I'll make sure to bring the CZ with me to the next few matches with the hopes of finding you there. In the mean time I'll dust off the Glock and play with it for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I approve. Good job guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Not wanting to read more into it, but wasn't the purpose to try to make it as clear as possible what can and cannot be done? So what is the DNROI interpretation of my question, not what other shooters think, but what is the ruling. These are the types of questions that should have been in the FAQ. I sent the link to the documents off to the MD's in my area and got feedback that there was confusion on this as well (not the specific question). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Vulc, I know you are wanting a specific answer to a specific question, but there is no way anyone could write a rule or a set of FAQ's that would cover every potential part inside your or anyone else's gun. We laid out a path that you could follow. As long as you stayed on the path you are good to go. Just my opinion mind you, but I think XRE gave you a pretty good reading of the rule. If you want a specific answer about a spring or a bent part, you will probably have to request an official ruling. I think most folks are seeing the picture, no offense intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_pedro Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Regarding those (CZ) firing pin blocks...there seems to be a logical inconsistency between two FAQ's that mention these (#16 and #29). FAQ 16 clearly asserts that it doesn't matter who does the work, either something (e.g. pulling the firing pin safety) is legal or it isn't. FAQ 29 is contrary to this position, saying that it would be ok if the factory pulled the firing pin safety before shipping the pistol. Further, FAQ 16 begs the question of what happens if the "custom shop" gets a model approved with the firing pin safety removed? Would it then be ok for me to remove a firing pin block? All in all, great work by the BOD, IMO. Thanks! From the FAQ's16) I am looking at buying a “custom shop” gun which is based on a model that is approved for USPSA Production Division, but has different features than the normal off-the-shelf model. Is it legal to use in competition? ANSWER: It depends. In general, the custom shop can do any modifications which are also permitted for you to do. So, the custom shop can add texture in the permitted areas, can do internal work on trigger mechanisms, can fit an aftermarket barrel of the same length/caliber/contour, can install aftermarket sights, etc. However, for use in the USPSA Production Division, modifications are constrained no matter who performs them. So, if a modification would make a gun illegal for use in Production Division, that modification is illegal even if it came from the manufacturer’s custom shop. For example, the custom shop may not add or remove material to change the profile of the grip-frame, add or reshape a beavertail, remove or disable safety mechanisms, add an external magwell, mill the slide to achieve a different contour, etc. Modifications which are not specifically allowed in Appendix D4 or a published NROI ruling would result in a “new/unapproved model”, illegal for use in USPSA Production Division, no matter whether those modifications are made by you, your gun-smith or the manufacturer’s custom-shop. Please note that there is a process by which a manufacturer can freely innovate features on guns intended for USPSA Production Division. When they have produced at least 2000 units in a new configuration, they may submit the new model to NROI for approval in USPSA Production Division. When the gun has been certified as compliant with the Production Division rules, the new “custom shop” model will be added to the list of “approved guns”. 29) The factory produces several versions of my Production gun – one with a firing-pin block or external thumb safety, and one without. Mine came without, but has holes in the frame or slide where it would have been. How can I “demonstrate” that I have not illegally removed those safety mechanisms? ANSWER: Range staff cannot possibly know every factory configuration of every gun, and won’t know every detail of your particular gun. So if there is some aspect of your gun which would cause it to be challenged under these rules, we believe your best course of action is to be prepared to provide documentation about the original factory configuration of your gun. A letter from the manufacturer, a catalog page or other evidence which lists (for example) a range of serial numbers which were shipped without those safety mechanisms should be more than sufficient. Edited March 10, 2009 by double_pedro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I think most folks are seeing the picture, no offense intended. None taken, though I have some MD's that may disagree with your statement.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) From the NROI interpretation document:... ... So I read that it has to be specifically stated, then I see that an internal mod is allowed as long as it is not visible (FAQ's). As long as it is not visible or otherwise contra-indicated by other statements in the section, yes (visibility isn't the only thing...) So I cut the tab on my Glock trigger and relocate the spring, none of which is listed as an approved mod and none of which can be seen when the gun is in battery. It is "okay" to use until someone challenges me and I have to explain where in the rules it says I can do this, correct? The onus is on me to explain. So I run all season this way, say I win some good matches, then get called on it and cannot show where it says I can do it. Oops, my bad and I get moved to Open?? Is it an internal modification to a part? (yes) Is it externally visible when the gun is in battery? (no) Does it affect the operation of any of the gun's safeties? (no) Its covered and allowed. Don't try to read more into it than is there.... I thought looking at this with a fresh set of eyes this morning might clear things up for me a little. It didn't. I disagree. From the BOD statement of direction. "In Production Division, unless the rules (and, by extension, official NROI interpretations) specifically state, in plain language, without assumptions or interpolations, that a modification is allowed, THAT MODIFICATION IS PROHIBITED." and "DO NOT assume something is ALLOWED, unless the rules/interpretations plainly and explicitly state that it is." Maybe I'm missing something, but as of today nothing is any different. From the FAQ: "ALL modifications are PROHIBITED in USPSA Production Division unless a specific item in Appendix D4 or a published NROI ruling clearly states that specific modification is allowed for use in USPSA Production Division." Unless the FAQ is considered a NROI ruling, nothing in the NROI interpretation discusses internal trigger modifications. If the FAQ is considered a ruling, all it mentions is "you may drill a hole and add a screw inside the gun to provide an overtravel stop." That probably covers some of the Glock's out there, but not much else. From the statement of direction: "2) There is no way to restore the “stock gun” boundaries without retroactively declaring current member guns and modifications invalid for the division; the Board is reluctant to invalidate member-owned equipment. 3) There is no viable way to enforce restrictions on internal modifications without implementing an inspection process, a minimum trigger pull, or both; the Board does not wish to impose either approach at this time." I think those two lines muddy the water a little bit, but neither of them list a specific modification that is allowed. I'm still trying to recover from my weekend with Max and Travis. If there is something obvious I'm missing, please point it out to me. I'm going to put my Flex hat on though and say: "Please show me the ruling or line in D4 that justifies your opinion." edited for typo. Edited March 10, 2009 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Probably something in the water, or being too close to George Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Probably something in the water, or being too close to George Jones I didn't mean for my comments to be taken as critical of the hard work done by everyone involved on trying to clarify the rules. I just want to make sure I'm shooting a legal gun, since it's the shooters responsibility to make sure they comply. I will be submitting a request for a ruling to the NROI on the modifications done to my M&P. If I do actually get a production slot at the nationals I don't want to be the only one shooting open with iron sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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