9mm Major squibs with full powder charges

[ErikW]

Long-time reloader with many rounds of 9mm Minor, 9x21 Major, .38 Super Major, and 9mm Major loaded and fired. Loads in question are 9mm Major for a USPSA Open gun with KKM barrel.

 

I'm getting multiple squibs, with the primer propelling the bullet past the chamber into the rifling, but not igniting the large charge of Hodgdon HS-6 powder. This is only one batch of one particular load: 115 JHP over HS-6 with Wolf Small Rifle .223 primer, RP case. Maybe 1 in 20 results in this type of squib. The primer hits appear light compared to the rounds that fire normally. I changed the mainspring up to an 18# and it still occurs.

 

I also got 2 hang fires. Hammer drops and round goes off a moment later instead of instantly. Yikes.

 

Same load with CCI Small Rifle Magnum primer (mixed cases): no squibs

Wolf SR 223 primer (same case of 5,000) but 124 JHP and HS-6 (mixed cases): no squibs

Win SR primer, 124 JHP and HS-6 (mixed cases): no squibs

 

Everything loaded from the same jug, or same 2 jugs of HS-6, opened and stored in a garage in the low-humidity high desert. Rounds are Hundo gauged and finger-checked for high primers. Recovered bullets measure .355". Firing pin tip looks good.

 

Logic says it's the primers. Yet the 124 loads are fine. Is there an issue with RP cases?

 

 

Following picture: top row of 3 are squib loads, bottom row of 3 are normally fired loads

 

Edited May 6 by ErikW

[RangerTrace]

I vote primer issue.  

[rayw1128]

Are the two batches of brass (one batch with the squibs vs. the other batch with no squibs) prepped/cleaned at the same time?  

 

If they were prepped differently, maybe the batch with the squibs have some kind of containmination within the brass that spoiled the powder?  I had instances where I dropped powder in brass that was not completed dried (when I wet tumbled).  Also had once dropped powder in brass that had wax residue (used car wax to clean/polish brass when I dry tumbled) that clogged up the primer pocket. 

 

In both instances, the primers went off but did not ignite the powder. 

[Maximis228]

This seems to be a primer issue or contaminated powder. 

[ErikW]

All brass is dry tumbled only. Some is lubed with lanolin, sized and decapped, then cleaned again. Those not pre-sized are lubed with One Shot while loading. I don't recall which batch is which. 

[Braxton1]

I would think that if the primer had enough energy/oomph/fire to propel the bullet out of the case and down the barrel a bit, we have a POWDER problem.

 

I've seen powder light off of static electricity.  I'd think that said primers should have enough to light good powder...

[hitman]

Are you sure there was powder in the squibs? if so I agree you've got a powder issue.

[caspian guy]

The one time I have seen this it was a case of powder contamination (guy had put a little lube on his powder measure in a bad place ...) but contamination in the case would also explain it. In his case the bullet was just started into the rifling (like a primer only squib) but there was powder all over inside the gun.

Edited May 6 by caspian guy

[akarhi]

could be a primer issue or could be the case lube which causes the powder not fully ignite due to the moisture

[Postal Bob]

2 hours ago, ErikW said:

Some is lubed with lanolin, sized and decapped, then cleaned again

Let me ask if I understand correctly. After you resize them with some lanolin, or any lube, are you then cleaning by dry tumbling again? 

If that's the case, are you checking to see if any tumbling media is stuck in the primer pocket or flash hole before repriming? If so, that would prevent the primer flash from properly reaching the powder, but there would be enough pressure from the primer going off to push the bullet into the rifling.

[Farmer]

4 minutes ago, Postal Bob said:

Let me ask if I understand correctly. After you resize them with some lanolin, or any lube, are you then cleaning by dry tumbling again? 

If that's the case, are you checking to see if any tumbling media is stuck in the primer pocket or flash hole before repriming? If so, that would prevent the primer flash from properly reaching the powder, but there would be enough pressure from the primer going off to push the bullet into the rifling.

To go along with this,^ were all the anvils in the primers, properly? I had that happen in my 454 where it didn’t light the powder but shoved it and the bullet about an inch down the barrel. Packed it so tight I had to dig it out. When I popped the primer out there were only two legs on the anvil instead of three. Don’t know if that was the 100% cause but was pretty suspicious. 

[ErikW]

1 hour ago, Postal Bob said:

Let me ask if I understand correctly. After you resize them with some lanolin, or any lube, are you then cleaning by dry tumbling again? 

If that's the case, are you checking to see if any tumbling media is stuck in the primer pocket or flash hole before repriming? If so, that would prevent the primer flash from properly reaching the powder, but there would be enough pressure from the primer going off to push the bullet into the rifling.

Yes, second pass with sizing die decaps any potential media

[4n2t0]

Are some of those primers more deeply seated than others? Too deep to get a good strike? What about case length? These are long shots, but I'm trying to think outside the box given all the detailed information you provided.

Edited May 6 by 4n2t0

[lll Otto lll]

You shouldn’t rule out operator error. 

[Guy Neill]

Primers have three primary functions. One is to seal the hole in the back of the case. That's not an issue here.

 

Second is to supply heat to ignite the powder charge. Maybe an issue here.

 

Third is to supply initial pressure that the powder needs for good combustion. Maybe an issue here.

 

Ball powders, such as HS-6 commonly do better with a hotter, perhaps magnum primer that gives more heat and pressure.

 

First off - the primers are firing. That does not automatically exclude primer problems. If the primers did not have a full amount of priming compound, it may not have been able to supply enough heat and pressure even though it fired.

 

Similarly, if there was a contamination of the priming compound, it may have lessened the heat and pressure the primer could deliver. Impossible to tell since they fired. If powder that showed some melting from the heat could also indicate there was not enough heat to ignite.

 

Contamination of the powder can also cause such a problem. It may be detectable by placing a sample of the powder between paper towels and having slight pressure on it for a while to see if the paper towels absorb anything.

 

The light firing pin indent could be the thicker primer cup used with rifle primers. Those that look "normal" may have had the indent enlarged by setting back against the firing pin when the cartridge fired. Or it could result from the primer not being completely seated initially. I rule this out since they did fire whereas insufficiently seated primers generally do not.

 

Being it is a 9mm, the case taper should prevent the entire cartridge from much movement under the firing pin strike. We could talk about the firing pin as well, but since the cartridges fired, that doesn't seem the problem.

 

The leading suspects seem to be the amount or condition of the priming compound and the potential that the powder charge was contaminated. It is not always possible to determine the exact cause since some of the evidence is consumed (the primer pellet in this instance). With a misfired primer we can still have the priming compound to examine and try to determine if there is contamination.

 

You might set that powder and any remaining primers of that lot for use for practice and try a new lot of both powder and primers to see if the problem persists.

 

[zzt]

I've shot somewhere between 15k and 20k once fired RP cases for major with zero issues.  It is very unlikely to be the RP cases.

 

How is the neck tension on the 115 loads?  If the crimp is good, it is a primer problem.  The 124s are heavier and resist initial movement longer.  It is possible they stay still long enough for the flame front to develop and ignite the powder, whereas the 115s move more quickly and do not allow that.  I'd be surprised if the 124 loads still made major.

[Joe4d]

are the primers actually going off ? sounding like a 22 LR ?  Or are just gettign a click racking the slide and bullet stays in barrel while brass extracts and spills powder.. Could just be bad primers, and your bullets are too long,, IE they are getting stuck in the lands, and being pulled out of the case when you rack the slide.

 

[ysrracer]

I'm voting primers or powder.

[NoSteel]

Been there done that.  In my case it was contaminated powder due to not letting my case lube dry correctly. 

[ErikW]

More shooting today....

 

113 rounds through the bag dated 9-21-23 that had multiple squibs last outing. One squib.

 

164 rounds fired through the undated bag: Ten squibs, 3 hang fires, plus some interesting powder sprays to the face I also got last time out.

 

Both bags were again RP brass, 115 JHP, HS-6 over Wolf SR 223 primer.

 

Hang fires are scary, boy I tell you hwhat.

 

Edited May 10 by ErikW

[Nolan]

The primers that fired normally don't look like the 'light' hit primers because the case didn't set back against the breach face and firing pin when the round fired.  Those 'light' hits look more than adequate to have fired.

 

Have you de-primed any of the squibs?  What do the squib primers look like?

 

I would just pull all the suspect rounds rather than playing Russian Roulette with the remaining rounds.

 

Nolan

[mscott]

I would suspect the Wolf Primers. I had good luck with some many years ago, but then the next batch I got had hang fires and every other sort of problem. I dumped them all out of their containers and buried them in a hole. Would never buy them again.

[Farmer]

4 hours ago, ErikW said:

Hang fires are scary, boy I tell you hwhat.

 

Try one with a large caliber magnum revolver! CLICK,,,,fssssssssttttt-BOOM!!

[xjwalt666]

Have you checked the length on any of them to see if the bullets are walking out of the cases while in the mag? I had a similar case where the loads were too long and not allowing to go fully into battery and either getting a light strike or squibs because the crimp was too light. And when you got the squibs was the chamber and brass still full of powder or did it burn off?

[392heminut]

On 5/10/2024 at 4:56 PM, mscott said:

I would suspect the Wolf Primers. I had good luck with some many years ago, but then the next batch I got had hang fires and every other sort of problem. I dumped them all out of their containers and buried them in a hole. Would never buy them again.

I bought 10K small rifle Wolf primers several years ago and have never had an issue with them. I have no idea what newer production might be like now though.