Hit factor matches vs USPSA matches

[-JCN-]

21 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

That explains what happened at on club I shoot at.  The members wanted alternating USPSA and SCSA matches.  They shoot Mar thru Nov.  9 matches.  They did that for a while and USPSA said nope.  Shoot more USPSA matches.  So now they have 9 USPSA matches and SCSA only on months with a 5th Saturday.  

Our club just added SCSA and it was a separate affiliation, not just piggybacked on our USPSA. That’s why SCSA matches don’t count for USPSA totals, administratively they are separate. 

[ampleworks]

5 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

Deleting accounts removes all of the users posts, responses to posts, quoting of posts, etc. It leaves gaping holes in the continuity of the forum. That is why accounts are not deleted. If you wish to no longer be a member here, just do not visit.

 

You guys should really look into GPDR because this type of arrogance is exactly the one that ends up with a pissed EU citizen. This forum targets not only USPSA but also IPSC so trying to claim it's only for a US-based audience isn't going to fly in a court with the powdered wigs.

[donno]

Hit factor is just another way of running an unsanctioned match. USPSA is a sinking ship. All clubs need to cut ties with them and not go back until they start with a clean slate. When folks start getting tossed for offering their opinion, things need to change. USPSA has forgotten that all they are doing is selling entertainment.

[ltdmstr]

20 minutes ago, ampleworks said:

 

You guys should really look into GPDR because this type of arrogance is exactly the one that ends up with a pissed EU citizen. This forum targets not only USPSA but also IPSC so trying to claim it's only for a US-based audience isn't going to fly in a court with the powdered wigs.

 

1.  GPDR only applies to data provided by EU citizens.  2. GPDR only applies to entities that supply goods and/or services to data providers that also monitor their behaviour.  3. GDPR does not apply to organizations with fewer than 250 employees. 4. Whether GPDR is enforceable against an organization that has no European component is highly questionable, and very unlikely.  5. As a practical matter, the chance of an EU court going after a small, US-based, volunteer-run organization, with non-commercial purpose, for content voluntarily provided, on a free web site, is pretty much zero.

Edited January 28 by ltdmstr

[BritinUSA]

21 minutes ago, ampleworks said:

You guys should really look into GPDR because this type of arrogance is exactly the one that ends up with a pissed EU citizen. This forum targets not only USPSA but also IPSC so trying to claim it's only for a US-based audience isn't going to fly in a court with the powdered wigs.

This post could have easily been made without the inflammatory rhetoric, nevertheless; An EU citizen can request to have their userid deleted and GDPR requires that the userid be deleted. 

 

The second issue is the removal of content, as has been stated this would leave holes in the narrative of threads that would render some of them unreadable. The software used by this forum and many others does allow the content to remain but the username is replace by GUEST or some other vague description. This allows the content to remain but it essentially becomes anonymous thereby complying with the 'Right to be Forgotten'.

 

The more you know.

Edited January 28 by BritinUSA

[shred]

UPSPA is selling consistency of experience, same as Starbucks and McDonalds.  You can likely get better burgers and coffee many places but you can also get worse.   

 

They're also selling Nationals and Area matches (to several hundred people) and National Classifications.

 

rowdyb said it above.  As soon as someone games a stage or gets un-DQed because reasons or there's any sort of MD upset in a local-rules match, that's when the shouting starts.

 

 

[ltdmstr]

4 minutes ago, shred said:

UPSPA is selling consistency of experience, same as Starbucks and McDonalds.  You can likely get better burgers and coffee nearly everywhere but you can also get worse.   

 

They're also selling Nationals and Area matches (to several hundred people) and National Classifications.

 

rowdyb said it above.  As soon as someone 'games' a stage or there's any sort of MD upset in a local-rules match, that's when the shouting starts.

 

 

 

While I generally agree with this comment, I've seen some pretty questionable stuff at USPSA matches as well.  Both L1 and L2.

[BritinUSA]

Just now, ltdmstr said:

While I generally agree with this comment, I've seen some pretty questionable stuff at USPSA matches as well.  Both L1 and L2.

Consistency is in the hands of the people that run the stages/match. Justice is supposed to be blind to bias/favor, some officials get that and some see it as an exercise in power that pleases their ego.

 

This exists in every sport.

[RJH]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Where made up matches suck is the instant something goes wrong, is finessed, or a bad call is made. Then it's often just made up on the fly. And that infuriates me. I loathe outlaw matches generally just for this reason, their ad hoc nature as soon as something unintended happens.

 

 

I understand this, and it used to be a hill I would die on and one of the reasons that I wouldn't do a lot of outlaw matches and kind of hated three gun for a while.

 

But....... As time has gone on I've learned there's just a different flavor to your outlaw matches and you definitely have to find one that fits into what you prefer.

 

With most of the outlaw matches, especially on a club level you have to just rely on everybody's doing the best they can and allow a little bit of inconsistency and roll with it. That might cost you the Cadillac one week, but the next week you might benefit from an oddball call. Realistically though if you go to a matches run by people who have run USPSA and such in the past, or have a pretty good reputation running matches, it'll probably be okay. And if you run into things that are really stupid you just have to move on to a different match if it bothers you a lot

[RJH]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

 

 

 

Double tap

Edited January 28 by RJH

[RJH]

1 hour ago, shred said:

UPSPA is selling consistency of experience, same as Starbucks and McDonalds.  You can likely get better burgers and coffee many places but you can also get worse.   

 

They're also selling Nationals and Area matches (to several hundred people) and National Classifications.

 

rowdyb said it above.  As soon as someone games a stage or gets un-DQed because reasons or there's any sort of MD upset in a local-rules match, that's when the shouting starts.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

 

While I generally agree with this comment, I've seen some pretty questionable stuff at USPSA matches as well.  Both L1 and L2.

 

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Consistency is in the hands of the people that run the stages/match. Justice is supposed to be blind to bias/favor, some officials get that and some see it as an exercise in power that pleases their ego.

 

This exists in every sport.

 

 

Yep on all of these, consistency is what people are looking for whether it is in USPSA or an outlaw match. And in both kinds of matches I have seen some things that really didn't jive with the rule set, but that's the way it got resolved.

 

And who's running the match seems to be 100%, they deciding factor and how the match goes regardless of whether it is USPSA or something else.

 

Over the years I found that my attitude/expectations tend to dictate how the match goes more than anything else assuming it's run somewhat okay. At outlaw or level 1 USPSA I'm fine with letting things go, and I tend to have a lot more fun. At level 2 USPSA, I have a lot of trouble letting things go if they're not specific to the rules, or I see a BS call so I tend to have less fun at those events.

[BMSMB]

9 hours ago, shred said:

UPSPA is selling consistency of experience, same as Starbucks and McDonalds.  You can likely get better burgers and coffee many places but you can also get worse.   

 

They're also selling Nationals and Area matches (to several hundred people) and National Classifications.

 

rowdyb said it above.  As soon as someone games a stage or gets un-DQed because reasons or there's any sort of MD upset in a local-rules match, that's when the shouting starts.

 

 

I mean, the un-DQed thing happens in USPSA... Mel (A4D at the time) threw a hissy fit and got one.

 

I also believe I've heard about a different AD's son getting a 2nd chance to chrono after failing to make minor PF...

Edited January 29 by BMSMB

[Chills1994]

10 hours ago, shred said:

UPSPA is selling consistency of experience, same as Starbucks and McDonalds.  You can likely get better burgers and coffee many places but you can also get worse.   

 

They're also selling Nationals and Area matches (to several hundred people) and National Classifications.

 

rowdyb said it above.  As soon as someone games a stage or gets un-DQed because reasons or there's any sort of MD upset in a local-rules match, that's when the shouting starts.

 

 

On another forum I am on, there have been a flurry of USPSA related or match shooting threads and polls.

 

One of the questions asked in one thread was “What to do with shooters who won’t help paste targets and reset the stage?”

 

My answer to that is as long as somebody steps up as MD or as Co-MD and puts it into words either via email or on the club website at the start of the season that it is expected of everyone to help paste and reset and the consequences are X, Y, or Z, then, IMO, that would be the best course of action.  Listing other expectations would be good too.  EDIT:  like don’t break the 180, or that’s a DQ.

 

Sssssoooo….conversely, such communication can go both directions.  A potential new shooter can email the MD way before the match and ask some question like “What happens if I clearly hit a full size pepper popper and it fails to fall?  Is that considered a range equipment malfunction?  Do I get to start that stage over?”

 

If the MD ignores that email and never replies OR the answer is deemed inadequate by this potential new shooter, then he can always vote with his pocketbook  by going elsewhere to some other match.

 

We are all supposed to be adults….with guns.

 

This stuff doesn’t have to be that complicated.

 

EDIT:  if you’all could point me in the direction of these local outlaw club matches where it would seem a brand new Denali is on the line to get this wrapped up about outlaw matches’s rules (or lack thereof)….yyyyeeeaahhhh, that would be great.  Thanks!

 

 

Edited January 29 by Chills1994

[rowdyb]

Personal pride, honesty, fairness, sportsmanship, integrity are all worth more than a Denali.

 

It's about values and how humans treat each other, not comparative material goods.

[shred]

Oh yeah, shenanigans happen at USPSA matches too, but there's a process where you can throw down $100 and get some (hopefully disinterested) parties to decide on it if you care that much, and there's (supposedly) a disciplinary process for misbehaving ROs.  

 

Try either of those at a local-rule match.

 

[858]

8 minutes ago, shred said:

Oh yeah, shenanigans happen at USPSA matches too, but there's a process where you can throw down $100 and get some (hopefully disinterested) parties to decide on it if you care that much, and there's (supposedly) a disciplinary process for misbehaving ROs.  

 

Try either of those at a local-rule match.

 

 

It sounds to me like some of you guys have a lot to lose with all of these clubs going to outlaw matches. The status quo probably wasn't such a good choice after all. You may want to help solve some of the present problems with the BoD and organization staff before the damage becomes irreparable. 

[ddc]

21 minutes ago, 858 said:

 

It sounds to me like some of you guys have a lot to lose with all of these clubs going to outlaw matches. The status quo probably wasn't such a good choice after all. You may want to help solve some of the present problems with the BoD and organization staff before the damage becomes irreparable. 

 

I think we all have a lot to lose if everybody goes to outlaw matches.

 

I'd suggest that one of the things that gives an outlaw match any legitimacy or consistency would be how many of the competitors regularly shoot USPSA matches also.

If there are a lot then the outlaw match may be at least half-way "normal" as far as rules and safety are concerned.

If not then who knows.

 

I for one feel very strongly that we should hang in there with USPSA and give it some time to work things out.

 

I'm hopeful that things have reached a tipping point and that the old guard will see some significant turn over.

 

Getting A7 back is a start. A6 is solid. Maybe A3 comes back. We should have new A1 before too long.

Isn't A2 stepping down also?

 

That's a significant amount of change in a relatively short period of time.

[Zincwarrior]

On 1/27/2024 at 9:52 PM, shred said:

FWIW I shot an 85-ish shooter club match today (in Area 4).  About five people cared why a different local USPSA club was going to Hit Factor matches, the rest couldn't care less.

 

 

It was cold Saturday morning wasn't it.  Good to see the club hit a new range record for attendance. 

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, ddc said:

I for one feel very strongly that we should hang in there with USPSA and give it some time to work things out.

 

I do not think it has been suggested to ditch USPSA for good.  I think what people are trying to do is make USPSA understand the membership on the whole (at least those that run the level 1 matches) are not happy with current board, organizations and decisions they are making.  By running something other than USPSA matches for a spell and further hurting the organizations pocket book seems the only power Level 1 clubs have.  If they feel the crunch the first quarter of 2024, maybe they will understand that they need to change their behavior.  

 

Some of the board is trying to understand the current state of finances are and figure out how to fix the short falls, while some other board members and admin members of USPSA are making that very difficult.  The BoD for USPSA has been able to act unchecked for far too many years, and I think as many others do, that it is time for a reckoning.     

 

People who have expressed the displeasure with the BoD has changed nothing.  The only real way to fix things in my eyes is to make it painful for the current BoD through finances.  Emails, and social media posts are not going to cut it.  Money talks.  

 

[truespode]

46 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

People who have expressed the displeasure with the BoD has changed nothing.  The only real way to fix things in my eyes is to make it painful for the current BoD through finances.  Emails, and social media posts are not going to cut it.  Money talks.  

 

 

If 100 members do not renew that doesn't move the needle considering all of the turnover there is yearly in membership.

If 100 MD's go Hit Factor and not USPSA for several months, that hurts. It is much harder to find new MD's than it is to find new members. If the MD's get fed up enough to either stop altogether or not run USPSA it will matter a lot.

Until now, only members were voicing their displeasure openly. USPSA is still a small sport with high turnover. Unless the local leaders do something then not much will change. 

[Boomstick303]

8 minutes ago, truespode said:

If 100 members do not renew that doesn't move the needle considering all of the turnover there is yearly in membership.

 

I never measure the metrics of USPSA's economics on membership.   I do measure it on hundreds of clubs possibly holding back their USPSA fees.  

[zzt]

If USPSA falls by the wayside, all three clubs I shoot USPSA at would continue to hold USPSA style matches using those rules.  Heck.  Half the shooters would prefer no classifiers at all.  Half of the other half are fine with them, as long as they are the newer ones with movement.

 

As I mentioned earlier, if an outlaw match adheres to USPSA rules, I'm fine with it.  I did shoot one outlaw match at a club I will never go to again.  A shooter uncased his PCC while up range, held it horizontally and loaded it while walking to the start box.  He swept three people including a friend.  When my friend reported this to the MD, expecting a DQ, he was told they play by big boy rules. No DQ.  We have never shot there since.

[barry]

In Pennsylvania I've yet to hear of a club going hit factor. I have only think of one person that mentioned not renewing membership because of uspsa politics. And he was a never lift a finger to help shooter so no big loss.

I shoot every weekend and talk to a lot of people. What areas of country are these clubs switching to hit factor?

[TaterHead]

https://practicalshootinginsights.com
 

[Boomstick303]

To be clear the way to "Fix USPSA" is not to let your membership lapse.  It is to maintain you membership and for clubs to not send in their match fees to USPSA. 

 

I believe as many do we all need to maintain our membership to vote our conscious.