Hit factor matches vs USPSA matches

[RJH]

Just now, Maximis228 said:

 

Here in Northern IL, no club has received nationals slots for over 5 years. The Northern IL SC coordinator doesn't respond to emails and USPSA wont allow us to replace this person. Rick Steele (A5D) has been deaf on this issue both in person and via email. 

 

As time went on, more national matches were created. This should have meant more slots being sent to clubs... yet still nothing for anyone in the Northern IL Section. 

 

We vote in our section coordinator, and usually end up with a slot or two a year. There's another club that's close to me that is not in the same section, I'm not even sure if they're in a section at all. I know there are some clubs that are not in a particular section, I don't know just how that happens but apparently it does. 

 

Our section coordinator is elected, it's crazy that y'alls can't be removed or replaced with an election

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, 858 said:

 

If you guys believed that you'd still be pruning posts and locking threads. The USPSA corporate staff is hedging against the legacy BoD losing too. The longer this goes on, the worse it gets. Old people aren't the future of USPSA and the young members do not care about the legacy status quo. 

 

He's not wrong though. Many shooters at the local level aren't paying attention and aren't super serious. They'll likely show up and shoot the match either way. But the MD is likely going need to explain to them why they aren't getting a classifier at the match because they want to get out of C class. They don't know or really care what's going on.

 

Some people grossly under estimate the value the classification system brings. It's flawed sure, but that doesn't really matter. It's a carrot on stick and keeps peoples attention. 

 

That said, things have made a major shift way more people are talking about this now and I think all the BOD seats are likely getting flipped here soon. 

[Maximis228]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

We vote in our section coordinator, and usually end up with a slot or two a year. There's another club that's close to me that is not in the same section, I'm not even sure if they're in a section at all. I know there are some clubs that are not in a particular section, I don't know just how that happens but apparently it does. 

 

Our section coordinator is elected, it's crazy that y'alls can't be removed or replaced with an election

I agree. There are no bylaws that I'm aware of (Or I would have called for a vote when I was MD long ago). I just can't fathom how USPSA HQ lets this person hold everything hostage.

 

The Northern IL section was created when the Southern IL guys who used to run PASA and some other big ranges were tired of the Northern guys not helping out (Staff majors). They created their own section to then take control over more slots (They felt the Northern clubs got too much for how little they helped). At least that is the story I've been told by the old timers in my area. 

[Sarge]

14 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

I agree. There are no bylaws that I'm aware of (Or I would have called for a vote when I was MD long ago). 

According to USPSA, sections are required to have bylaws. I had to create Ohio’s from scratch 5 years ago

[Maximis228]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

According to USPSA, sections are required to have bylaws. I had to create Ohio’s from scratch 5 years ago

Yes, I fully agree. Thus why we reached out to HQ about this. One of many things they have dropped the ball on. 

[whan]

21 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Some people grossly under estimate the value the classification system brings. It's flawed sure, but that doesn't really matter. It's a carrot on stick and keeps peoples attention. 

 

 

Absolutely - most clubs are made up of casual shooters that will never hope to place well at nationals/areas or probably even ever go to one of those matches. Classifiers are great to help those shooters have a sense of progress. This forum is filled with more serious shooters, so you get a bias of people who focus on match performance and less on classification, but that's not reflective of the norm. I personally am a mix of both - I finally just made M recently, so care less now about classifiers but it is still an achievement I am proud of having made, especially since it was my goal when I first started in USPSA 4 years ago.

 

On top of that, I do believe that part of USPSA's brand value is that classifications actually mean something. A flawed system, but being a GM or even M does mean something even outside of the competitive shooting world. People don't really care about IDPA or multigun classifications in the same way. PCSL will take quite a while to have their classifications mean something in the broader gunosphere

[ltdmstr]

23 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

The Northern IL section was created when the Southern IL guys who used to run PASA and some other big ranges were tired of the Northern guys not helping out (Staff majors). They created their own section to then take control over more slots (They felt the Northern clubs got too much for how little they helped). At least that is the story I've been told by the old timers in my area. 

 

Back then, northern Illinois clubs like Midwest, Howell, Pine Tree, etc. ran L2s at Tri-County (Polo), Racine County Line Rifle Club and Oconowoc Sportsmand Club in WI.  But, quite a few of us worked the L2s at PASA.  Problem was, they were never satisfied.

Edited January 30 by ltdmstr
typo

[ampleworks]

42 minutes ago, Sarge said:

According to USPSA, sections are required to have bylaws. I had to create Ohio’s from scratch 5 years ago

 

Sections should have slots withheld until bylaws are not only on file at HQ but also available on the HQ's website to review for both transparency and legality. It sounds like a lot of these sections may/may not have valid bylaws in place or worse, ones that violate RRoR/state/federal law.

[dmshozer1]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:10 PM, barry said:

That doesn't really help. Maybe someone in pa will chime in with a club I could try out a hit factor match at. If it's not 4hrs away I might try it.

https://www.pcsleague.com/

https://practiscore.com/double-eagle-pcsl-match/register

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pcsl+shooting

[aandabooks]

6 hours ago, RJH said:

My section, which is not very far from shreds, seems to have the same plan as his.

 

The one issue with "sanctioning" USPSA through club dues and fees is that many of the people that run the clubs are interested in shooting bigger matches. So their classifiers and activity fees matter for Nationals slots.

 

To the many of us that are just club shooters and part-time volunteers, being affiliated with anything doesn't really matter. But to the people that are more serious and want to shoot higher level matches it does.

 

I don't have any correct answer, just my observations of why some clubs will continue to pay USPSA

Nationals slots won't matter if this continues.  They won't have a hope in hell of filling up a Nationals with awarded slots.  Be able to walk on the day of the match and shoot.

[shred]

Clubs can request to leave a section.  One did on the last USPSA BOD call.

 

[shred]

7 hours ago, 858 said:

 

If you guys believed that you'd still be pruning posts and locking threads. 

Why?  You seem to think you know a whole lot about the functioning of this board that even the Moderators don't  .

 

As long as people are being respectful and not coloring outside the guidelines.

 

IME the vast majority of USPSA shooters don't give two hoots what HQ is up to, for better or worse.  They get their match, they get their classification, they're good to go.

 

[BritinUSA]

USPSA members seem to fall into one of four groups;

1. Just want to shoot on weekends at L1 matches, interested in their classification, rarely shoots outside of their area but may do a State match if it’s close.
2. Serious competitor, uses L1 matches as practice for State, Area and maybe Nationals
3. Foreign members who want the magazine and may shoot USPSA classifiers in their own country.
4. People who don’t shoot at all

In 2022 I think there were around 17-23,000 people who shot at least one USPSA or SC match, which would mean about 12,0000 didn’t shoot at all. This statistic was notably absent from the latest DME report.

 

A smaller organization could easily meet the demands of the first two. A valid classification system is not that hard, and States can organize their own State and Area matches and let the org do a single Nationals.

 

I suspect that if the organization was a lot smaller and had a lot less revenue it would probably function better.

 

Its like the government, give it too much money and it grows to an unsustainable level, and makes everyone unhappy.

 

 

[zzt]

Well, I'm number 1 minus.  I've never shot outside my Area.  If fact, I've never shot USPSA outside my State. I no longer shoot LII and LIII matches because I don't like how they are run.  SCSA is a different story.  I don't care one whit about Classification anymore.  For years the clubs I shoot at had Classifiers requiring weak hand shooting.  Mine does not work properly.  Now there are New Classifiers that involve movement and are more like regular stages.  I might regain interest.

 

As far as slots go, my main club was begging people to take slots last year.  They didn't all get used.

[Zincwarrior]

19 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

USPSA members seem to fall into one of four groups;

1. Just want to shoot on weekends at L1 matches, interested in their classification, rarely shoots outside of their area but may do a State match if it’s close.
2. Serious competitor, uses L1 matches as practice for State, Area and maybe Nationals
3. Foreign members who want the magazine and may shoot USPSA classifiers in their own country.
4. People who don’t shoot at all

In 2022 I think there were around 17-23,000 people who shot at least one USPSA or SC match, which would mean about 12,0000 didn’t shoot at all. This statistic was notably absent from the latest DME report.

 

A smaller organization could easily meet the demands of the first two. A valid classification system is not that hard, and States can organize their own State and Area matches and let the org do a single Nationals.

 

I suspect that if the organization was a lot smaller and had a lot less revenue it would probably function better.

 

Its like the government, give it too much money and it grows to an unsustainable level, and makes everyone unhappy.

 

 

To be fair, its not much money actually.  Same annual revenues as a moderate church in the South. 

Now the expenses make me go...what??? But thats for a different board. 

 

Hit factor matches may be the bee's knees for clubs that don't want to support USPSA right now, but want to stay involved in the space - and have matches. 

[858]

USPSA filed for a trademark on "Hit Factor". That's USPSA's long game. 

 

 

[RJH]

24 minutes ago, 858 said:

USPSA filed for a trademark on "Hit Factor". That's USPSA's long game. 

 

 

 

Things like this really show that USPSA leadership has the members best interest at heart.......

[shred]

Filed Jan 17, 2024.  Seems, er, challenging to get, but maybe the examiner isn't paying attention. They set up a bunch of "Hit Factor" domains and sites probably to provide some justification for the TM.

 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

46 minutes ago, 858 said:

USPSA filed for a trademark on "Hit Factor". That's USPSA's long game. 

 

 

 

So people will call it points per second or similar. They can't trademark math.

[Schutzenmeister]

7 minutes ago, shred said:

Filed Jan 17, 2024.  Seems, er, challenging to get, but maybe the examiner isn't paying attention. They set up a bunch of "Hit Factor" domains and sites probably to provide some justification for the TM.

Interesting ... Was there any mention of this in any recent BoD meetings?

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, Schutzenmeister said:

Interesting ... Was there any mention of this in any recent BoD meetings?

 

Let's check the minutes....oh wait. 

[858]

7 minutes ago, shred said:

Filed Jan 17, 2024.  Seems, er, challenging to get, but maybe the examiner isn't paying attention. They set up a bunch of "Hit Factor" domains and sites probably to provide some justification for the TM.

 

 

 

 

IP is only as good as it's enforcement. Assuming USPSA is actually granted the trademark, they would need to enforce it at which point they'd face potential invalidation and counter claim. Not to mention public opinion. 

[Schutzenmeister]

Still interesting ... Here's a link to the application:

 

HIT FACTOR - United States Practical Shooting Association Trademark Registration (uspto.report)

 

I'm just guessing here, but I believe that IPSC, as a minimum, could possibly make calim they used this term before USPSA.

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, 858 said:

 

IP is only as good as it's enforcement. Assuming USPSA is actually granted the trademark, they would need to enforce it at which point they'd face potential invalidation and counter claim. Not to mention public opinion. 

 

Don't they have to basically sue everyone who uses it? So like every club in the country currently running HF matches. If that's right, I wonder how much we'll pay our lawyers for that. 

[858]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Don't they have to basically sue everyone who uses it? So like every club in the country currently running HF matches. If that's right, I wonder how much we'll pay our lawyers for that. 

 

That's right, and they have to sue in the state the infringement occured.

 

USPSA's goofy attorney is facing an investigation for practicing law in WA without a license too.