Hit factor matches vs USPSA matches

[TaterHead]

In another thread there were comments about matches being “hit factor” as opposed to uspsa. I didn’t want to cause that thread to drift.

 So, this seems to be a uspsa match with the exception of reporting it, or paying activity fees. Is this a trend? Is a uspsa rule set, or subset, used? Just wondering.

[RJH]

Hit factor is just how a match is scored.

 

Basically when people are talking about running a hit Factor match they're probably talking about running a non-sanctioned USPSA match under basically USPSA rules. They could also be talking about maybe having a pscl match. It could also be completely outlaw style, except for scoring which would be hit factor, that people that shoot USPSA are used to. 

 

 

[ChuckS]

8 minutes ago, TaterHead said:

In another thread there were comments about matches being “hit factor” as opposed to uspsa. I didn’t want to cause that thread to drift.

 So, this seems to be a uspsa match with the exception of reporting it, or paying activity fees. Is this a trend? Is a uspsa rule set, or subset, used? Just wondering.

As you know, Hit Factor is just the USPSA/IPSC label for scoring points per second. I believe that Hit Factor came to designate a match type due to Practiscore creating the new match template so clubs could do points per second scoring without appearing to be a sanctioned USPSA match. As RJH pointed put, the match could be any rule set but is scored points per second. 

[BritinUSA]

Some are running matches under IPSC rule-book, apparently these don't require activity fees either.

[euxx]

2 hours ago, ChuckS said:

I believe that Hit Factor came to designate a match type due to Practiscore creating the new match template so clubs could do points per second scoring without appearing to be a sanctioned USPSA match.

The PractiScore has had the Hit Factor scoring for over 10 years at least. It is so happen that people started to pay attention to it.

[Chills1994]

2 hours ago, TaterHead said:

In another thread there were comments about matches being “hit factor” as opposed to uspsa. I didn’t want to cause that thread to drift.

 So, this seems to be a uspsa match with the exception of reporting it, or paying activity fees. Is this a trend? Is a uspsa rule set, or subset, used? Just wondering.

When I put on outlaw 3 gun matches, I used  time plus scoring.

 

I was a USPSA and Steel Challenge MD at the time.

 

Since we were using 40 yard deep pistol bays for 3 gun, we used reduced scale cardboard targets for rifle targets.  One hit in the A zone with a rifle = it’s down or neutralized.  Or two rifle hits anywhere = down.
 

Full sized cardboard targets were THEE pistol targets.

 

”Two in the brown, it’s down.”

 

Then for the steel targets (shotgun or pistol), it was “All steel must fall in order to score.”

 

Any target not neutralized added 5 seconds to your score.

 

Scoring each shooter’s run went extremely fast.

 

And I could tally up everyone’s score at lunch.  No calculator needed.  No scoring software needed either.

 

All money stayed in house to pay for more targets and better props.

[aandabooks]

My club is going to hit factor while we are indoors for the winter or the board gets things straight.  Basically USPSA ruleset with divisions recognized.  No classifier and no report of the match to USPSA.  Just uploaded to Practiscore.

[Schutzenmeister]

So ... Using USPSA Rules, presumably USPSA Targets, USPSA Divisions, and simply NOT reporting the match to USPSA or sending the concomitant fees in, right?

 

Can anyone spell COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT?

[BritinUSA]

I don’t think it’s a copyright issue. It would be if they were selling rulebooks though. 
 

I understand why it is being done too. There is a lot of money in this sport and it’s being created by many hundreds of volunteers working thousands of hours. 
 

Those volunteers - and the members that pay for matches and activity/classifier fees - are not getting much back from the organization and many feel they have no voice/control over what is going on.

 

If you haven’t watched the two most recent BOD meetings, I would suggest you take a look.
 

They are here on YouTube

Edited January 26 by BritinUSA

[Schutzenmeister]

I've seen them.  I like sausage, but I have better sense than to watch it being made.  I wish I'd thought of that before watching those meetings.

 

And yes, I'm 99% sure that would be copyright infringement.  However, I don't believe HQ has ever taken much to enforcing it.

[Dirty_J]

3 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I've seen them.  I like sausage, but I have better sense than to watch it being made.  I wish I'd thought of that before watching those meetings.

 

And yes, I'm 99% sure that would be copyright infringement.  However, I don't believe HQ has ever taken much to enforcing it.

You can’t copyright a sports rule set. Only it’s printing and (re)distribution. 
 

Otherwise MLB could be suing every kid playing backyard ball and using a 3 strikes and your out batting rule. Or an MLB official ball. 
 

HQ ain’t enforcing it because they legally can’t… not that legality has ever stopped this current cast of characters. 

[Chills1994]

13 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

So ... Using USPSA Rules, presumably USPSA Targets, USPSA Divisions, and simply NOT reporting the match to USPSA or sending the concomitant fees in, right?

 

Can anyone spell COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT?

 

OMG!

 

How dare these guys NOT pay any fees or per capita taxes to the NBA!?

 

Shame on them!

[Pfiddy]

My club is going to switch to HF matches. It is not copyright infringement to refer to a rule set. The recent actions of he board have definitely turned me off from supporting the org. We have put a bit of money and significant time into replacing the A1 director with a good honest dude. 
 

I don’t want to see USPSA fail but it does have to change. So no money from this club until it does. 

[zzt]

FWIW, my home club is not affiliated with any orgs other than NRA and CMP.  I run monthly 2-stage action matches on the pistol (bullseye) range.  We use USPSA rules, plus one club rule.  We use USPSA and IPSC targets.  We use Practiscore for scoring.

 

I shoot USPSA, so the rule set was a natural.  So were the targets.  We place barrels at each firing position so shooters may stage their mags.  When I first started this, only three of us shot USPSA.  We were the only three with holsters and mag pouches.  Now, every shooter except one wears a belt with holster and mag pouches.  At least nine joined USPSA and now shoot in sanctioned matches.  Everyone knows the relevant rules.

 

Shooting in these matches and following the rules gave these shooters the confidence they needed to shoot sanctioned matches.  

 

Same with our steel matches and the Summer steel league.  Surrender draw and SCSA rules.  Twelve of our shooters now compete in sanctioned SCSA matches.

 

So, I don't think hit factor matches or even outlaw matches hurt USPSA as long as you are using their rule set.  I think it helps a lot.  Plus, you can draw USPSA shooters to them.  We have six new to us USPSA shooters now shooting our matches.

[varminter22]

3 hours ago, Pfiddy said:

My club is going to switch to HF matches. It is not copyright infringement to refer to a rule set. The recent actions of he board have definitely turned me off from supporting the org. We have put a bit of money and significant time into replacing the A1 director with a good honest dude. 
 

I don’t want to see USPSA fail but it does have to change. So no money from this club until it does. 

I can't help but agree.  

 

Do you think the USPSA BoD even has a clue?  (They certainly don't seem to.)

[warpspeed]

8 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

I can't help but agree.  

 

Do you think the USPSA BoD even has a clue?  (They certainly don't seem to.)

 

That's one of the frustrating parts to this whole saga - how can they not ?

 

And yet, their actions indicate they don't.  When this whole thing started, back with the removal of Mike Foley, my AD engaged with me when I expressed some concern. Now he doesn't even give a courtesy response ; no thank you, F you  Kiss my ass, go to hell. Nothing.  

 

 

[858]

23 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

I can't help but agree.  

 

Do you think the USPSA BoD even has a clue?  (They certainly don't seem to.)

 

Yes. Social media has completely swayed public opinion. The public meetings last week provided concrete evidence of what has been happening for a very long time. The issues are unescapable and the organization can't lie about them any longer. A4D resigned last week due to the public pressure. Clubs like Sig Academy have publicly unaffiliated and sponsors are publicly withdrawing.  It is only a matter of time, USPSA is either going to entirely collapse or the legacy BOD and staff will resign. Possibly both. Just look at this forum, threads that would have been locked two weeks ago are now left open.

Edited January 27 by 858

[BritinUSA]

Colorado has an extensive network of clubs that shoot USPSA. When the weather cooperates, a competitor could engage in 8-10 matches in any given month.

 

This letter was just sent out to clubs in the Eastern Colorado Section where I shot for 21 years.

 

Quote

To all members of the Eastern Colorado USPSA section,

 

Last night, Thursday, 1/25/24, a majority of the ECO Club Presidents met to discuss the current state of USPSA and how recent events are affecting our section here on the Front Range. As some of you may or may not be aware of, for the past several years, there have been issues plaguing USPSA at the national level, specifically the Board of Directors (BoD). In general, those issues and allegations have not, and do not, affected us at our local matches. They do not affect how we operate as independent clubs to put on quality USPSA matches within our section. However, many of you are aware of these national BoD issues, which I will not detail here except to say that they are on the level of ethics and financial violations. The growing concern amongst membership across the country, within our Area and Section, has reached the point of concern that many of you have sent emails and messages to your club presidents, match directors, myself, and/or commented on social media or other platforms. The section club presidents and I felt that the most recent events that transpired at the national BoD level was enough to merit a meeting to discuss the situation as it pertains to our section and how we operate.

 

The Eastern Colorado USPSA Section is bound by by-laws that have been approved by the club presidents (past and present) and filed with our Area Director and USPSA. (They can be viewed on this page here: https://www.ecouspsa.com/sectioninfo ) These by-laws govern how we, as independent clubs, operate as a unified section to ensure consistent application of rules, dissemination of match information, safety program guidelines and adherence (including range officer classes), cooperation and support for Level II matches, and distribution of Nationals slots awarded to our section. These by-laws limit the liability to the section and to the clubs. While we, the club presidents, know that we are beholden to you, our section members, and are very cognizant of the requests that have been brought to us lately with regard to our section’s relationship with the national level of USPSA and calls for immediate action, we are analyzing all of our options, both as a section and as individual clubs. Our main goal is to continue to bring you all quality, safe matches while adhering to our by-laws and not incurring any additional liability. We will be meeting again in a few weeks to discuss further options, but please understand that while we cannot take any immediate action, know that we have heard you. 

 

If you have any questions, please reach out to your club president, match director, or myself.

 

Thank you,

Eastern Colorado USPSA Club Presidents and Match Directors

 

Edited January 27 by BritinUSA

[GrumpyOne]

To those whose posts have "disappeared" from this thread. 

 

Your post disappeared because it violated forum guidelines.

Those guidelines have been in place for many years...they haven't changed.

 

To those with the "needs to be a forum to discuss this stuff" mentality, you are right...there needs to be a forum to discuss this stuff, and there probably is...but it is not here. 

 

While discussions about USPSA, IPSC, and other shooting sports is a major part of this forum, this is NOT a USPSA/IPSC specific forum. 

 

Nature abhors a vacuum. If USPSA were to decline, another shooting body would take its place...but, this forum will remain, as it is NOT a USPSA/IPSC specific forum. This is a SHOOTING FORUM. 

 

Now, any more calling the moderators or admins "Fudds" or derogatory comments about the VOLUNTEER work they do on the forum, to enforce the rules, as Brian set forth more than 20 years ago, will result in that post being removed and the person posting such to be suspended from the forum. 

 

The mods and admins are your fellow shooters. Would you name call and treat the match director, range master, or range officer of your local club such for following and enforcing the rules of the match? 

 

 

[Nolan]

Thank you!

 

Nolan

[ampleworks]

At this point we can’t have a casual conversation and actually dive into the reasons of why shooters feel this way and it’s one of the reasons why most of the sub forums on here have died. 
 

I’m not going to be a party to censorship any longer just because someone’s feelings got hurt because A2 and A8 got stomped on when reinstating A7D. 

 

If that’s how this place is to continue to be ran, go ahead and send me a refund for the remaining part of my forum sponsorship because quite frankly, this is getting ridiculous. 

[Dirty_J]

Just now, ampleworks said:

At this point we can’t have a casual conversation and actually dive into the reasons of why shooters feel this way and it’s one of the reasons why most of the sub forums on here have died. 
 

I’m not going to be a party to censorship any longer just because someone’s feelings got hurt because A2 and A8 got stomped on when reinstating A7D. 

 

If that’s how this place is to continue to be ran, go ahead and send me a refund for the remaining part of my forum sponsorship because quite frankly, this is getting ridiculous. 

I agree. There’s a reason this place isn’t flush with cash for the hosting. 
 

It’s rarely fun and only sometimes informative to post here. It’s the ultimate echo chamber. 
 

Hopefully this feedback gets to the powers that be… as I know it’ll be deleted. 
 

This place is dying… and the extreme moderation is why. 
 

Y’all have fun.  

 

[ColoradoNick]

I requested deletion of my account. This will be my last post here.

[GrumpyOne]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoNick said:

I requested deletion of my account. This will be my last post here.

No need for all that...besides, no account ever gets deleted.

[GrumpyOne]

14 minutes ago, ampleworks said:

At this point we can’t have a casual conversation and actually dive into the reasons of why shooters feel this way and it’s one of the reasons why most of the sub forums on here have died. 
 

I’m not going to be a party to censorship any longer just because someone’s feelings got hurt because A2 and A8 got stomped on when reinstating A7D. 

 

If that’s how this place is to continue to be ran, go ahead and send me a refund for the remaining part of my forum sponsorship because quite frankly, this is getting ridiculous. 

It's not censorship. It's the forum rules.