USPSA Survey moving production to 15 rounds.

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, Ice36 said:

Where at the start of a stage you have more than 8 shots but because they say you can see them from another spot or that you turned its more than one view, forcing standing reloads or finish a stage with more than 8 shots but because you could have shot them from a much harder position. it's within the rules and everyone in the same class has the same reload issues but when you have to do a standing reload at the start of a stage over and over again, its not competitive for the overall.

That’s all legal and there is no such thing as overall.

[Ice36]

15 minutes ago, Sarge said:

That’s all legal and there is no such thing as overall.

First, I stated it was within the rules, and when I talk to others about shooting single stack or revo the most common answer is I don't like seeing name at the bottom of the list on practiscore in the overall standings. I also know that there is no overall placings but when looking at scores that's how its listed. 

[Ice36]

53 minutes ago, sc68cal said:

 

This is sadly an issue with bad stage designs. Designers are getting very creative with the definition of a position and it's not fair to the lowcap divisions. Talk to your club match director and ask them to stop making stages that punish low cap divisions. It is very easy to design stages that are fun, interesting, and don't punish divisions. It just takes someone actually caring

This example wasn't at a club match, and I did address it at the time and was well received, but this was more common this year than last year. I know stage design isn't easy and understand that this issue is part of shooting low cap but I find that it also keeps people away from shooting it. 

[rowdyb]

Thinking about it, in Prod I go to the start normally with 61 rounds on me. In CO it was 70 rounds. 

 

Just need a lot more hand motion to access it hahaha.

 

And it was great advice given to me by a gm forum member to de-prioritize the reload and emphasize the shooting efficiency. This was a paradigm shift as I really used to plan "where is my reload" in Prod. Now I plan what I hope is the most efficient way through the stage and fit the reloads into that. Rather than vice-versa. 

[Stony Lane]

I voted for 15 rounds, but 140mm magazines are the real answer.  

[rowdyb]

2 minutes ago, Stony Lane said:

I voted for 15 rounds, but 140mm magazines are the real answer.  

I could get behind that if they took away some of the modifications 

[bigtimelarry]

I Voted Yes for 15 Rounds.

[stick]

22 hours ago, rowdyb said:

How did you vote?

Looking at this again, I voted "Yes"  I think I was having a senior moment when you asked how I voted.

[Makicjf]

If they went to 17 rounds, you'd essentially have lim minor;  you could clear 2 arrays with one left in the mag and your barney.  Most "production" pistols either ship with or have available 17+ rounders:  is uspsa reaching for 15 to establish parity with IPSC?   IMO, 17 ( or even 140's) could breathe a lot of life into production, 15, via my stage calculus, does not expand stage plan options nearly as much as 17.

  If they are going to change, why not change to match most production gun mag capacities (at minimum) and  fill production with all the lim minor shooters lurking in Limited?

Jason

[PA_USPSA]

I voted for 10.  Since most of my competitions are in New Jersey and New Jersey limits magazines to 10 rounds, it would put me at a disadvantage with some classifiers if the limit was 15.

[sc68cal]

1 hour ago, Makicjf said:

why not change to match most production gun mag capacities

 

15 is the lowest common denominator for "wonder nine" pistols. There are certainly pistols out there that come with larger stock capacities, but there are lots that come with 15. Production should accommodate as many stock pistols as possible and 15 is probably the sweet spot

[Fishbreath]

2 hours ago, Makicjf said:

If they went to 17 rounds, you'd essentially have lim minor;  you could clear 2 arrays with one left in the mag and your barney.

 

This is only true if you consider an array to be 8 rounds exactly, which (going by the moon clips I've had left over after majors this year) is true maybe 50% of the time at most. 6 and 7 are super-common, as are combinations like 8-6 or 6-6, both of which are possible with 15 but not 10.

[whan]

 

2 hours ago, Makicjf said:

If they went to 17 rounds, you'd essentially have lim minor;  you could clear 2 arrays with one left in the mag and your barney.  Most "production" pistols either ship with or have available 17+ rounders:  is uspsa reaching for 15 to establish parity with IPSC?   IMO, 17 ( or even 140's) could breathe a lot of life into production, 15, via my stage calculus, does not expand stage plan options nearly as much as 17.

  If they are going to change, why not change to match most production gun mag capacities (at minimum) and  fill production with all the lim minor shooters lurking in Limited?

Jason

 

IMO 15 is the sweet spot. As others have mentioned, it covers almost all typical service pistols - the Beretta 92 stock mags were originally 15 rounds and G19s are very popular despite being a compact. I think Production and CO should be divisions that someone can buy gear from at their local gunstore and immediately go and compete and not be at much of a disadvantage. Requiring 140mm mags or even just length-limited mags means people need to seek out specialty basepads, springs, and followers, and play around with them to squeeze max capacity, including disabling lockback. 

 

17 is probably ok as well (definitely not 140mm IMO), but 15 is a nice sweet spot of being very distinct from the 10 round and also 140mm games.

Edited September 11, 2023 by whan

[Racinready300ex]

I've shot some matches with 15 round mags in CO and was able to do the same or vary similar stage plans to CO I was just taking on a lot more risk in places as I might only have a round or two to spare. 

[davidb72]

I voted against it - I enjoy stage planning with 10 rounds either in single stack or production.

I don't enjoy stage planning with 8 rounds in single stack though - I find that too confining.

[RJH]

28 minutes ago, davidb72 said:

I voted against it - I enjoy stage planning with 10 rounds either in single stack or production.

I don't enjoy stage planning with 8 rounds in single stack though - I find that too confining.

 

Single stack and production stage breakdown is exactly the same. Exactly 

[shred]

Unless you're shooting SS Major, then it's the same as Revo Minor.  9 rounds on board is different enough than 11 sometimes.

 

15 is a good compromise between ban states and non-ban.  Travelling Ban-staters can borrow plain factory mags that will have a very good chance of running from pretty much anyone.  Make it 140 and then you need to schedule a test-fire visit to see if it'll work and hope.

 

[hlsccsfa]

There was another set of surveys for Prod 15 and LO etc... The majority (over 70%) voted yes to Prod 15, I thought it was a done deal, not sure why they made another survey specifically for this. I voted yes again. 

[IHAVEGAS]

18 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Single stack and production stage breakdown is exactly the same. Exactly 

No offense intended, but I shoot production 10,  have shot what seems like 1,000 matches with a buddy that shoots ss major and another buddy that shoots revolver 8 and I used to shoot ss 8. Stage planning is often very different, it is amazing how much that extra 2 or 3 rounds changes things. 

[IHAVEGAS]

19 hours ago, davidb72 said:

I voted against it - I enjoy stage planning with 10 rounds either in single stack or production.

 

I think when all is said and done they are going to find out that the change made production less interesting to those who like the challenges involved and just made it more one dimensional (how fast can you run) like many of the rest of the divisions. Time will tell. 

[wtturn]

21 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I think when all is said and done they are going to find out that the change made production less interesting to those who like the challenges involved and just made it more one dimensional (how fast can you run) like many of the rest of the divisions. Time will tell. 

Yep

 

 

[wtturn]

You fellas voting for 15 had better come out and shoot production once the changeover occurs, otherwise you all deserve a swift kick in the shins.

 

People who don't shoot production and have no plans to shoot production have no business voting at all.

[BadShot]

I'm hoping the guys who like the 10 round limit will come over and shoot single stack.  We could use more people here.

[Braxton1]

I voted FOR Prod-15, just for some commonality with International rules.  (Although, in reality, my logic is flawed as we've already skipped right past that with USPSA's "Sponsored by Dremel" Production specs and IPSC shooters can use race holsters as long as they're in the right place.)

[THS]

If they go to 15 I'll probably try it again.   If they went back to the old holster and mag positions (similar to IPSC I think) I'd go back for sure.   

 

Vision aint what it used to be, and I'm pretty invested in CO, but I enjoyed Production more than Limited or my old (91-93) Open days.