USPSA Survey moving production to 15 rounds.

[stick]

Just clicked on the USPSA site to check some scores, I saw this survey asking to move production to 15 rounds.

 

Here's the link

 

USPSA is considering adjusting the Production Capacity from 10 to 15 rounds. In line with bylaw 16.2, we've made a survey available on our website: https://uspsa.org/surveys

[rowdyb]

How did you vote?

[Nathanb]

I don’t think I voted on this one. I don’t have a dog in this fight anymore 

[858]

30 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

How did you vote?

 

There probably isn't much point in voting. The current BOD floats ideas like this when they've already made up their mind. LO is a good example.

[BadShot]

Thanks for pointing that out, I voted no.

 

[RJH]

I voted yes. I would imagine in the last survey the combo of 15 and fill them up was way ahead of leave at 10, with 15 being the majority of those 2. 

 

So this is like the finals of that survey. 

 

I figure 10 seems to be definitely what the people don't want, so maybe 15 will help the division. I might shoot it at 15 rounds, I probably won't with 10 rounds, as I would just shoot Single stack instead. 

[stick]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

How did you vote?

I just clicked on take survey

[BadShot]

With production at 10 rounds, there are still some low capacity competition with production and single stack at the local matches.  If production goes 15 rounds that leaves single stack all alone. I know it's not a big deal as low capacity is dying across the board.  

[GrumpyOne]

I'm sure the BOD looked at participation of PD compared to what it used to be compared to now VS CO. 

Single Stack is always going to be a low cap division, nature of the beast and all, just like revolver (look what happened to Revo when they made 8 rounds legal). There is no logical reason to leave PD at 10 rounds anymore, especially with all the other modifications that one can do to a PD blaster.

[BadShot]

I really don't shoot much production anymore, I know the few guys at our club really want it to stay at 10 rounds. 

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

I'm sure the BOD looked at participation of PD compared to what it used to be compared to now VS CO. 

Single Stack is always going to be a low cap division, nature of the beast and all, just like revolver (look what happened to Revo when they made 8 rounds legal). There is no logical reason to leave PD at 10 rounds anymore, especially with all the other modifications that one can do to a PD blaster.

 

Agreed. Production limit probably should have been lifted as soon as the Brady Bill expired. I wouldn't have minded being able to use 140s, but 15 is actually a pretty good number too. Puts people in line with ipsc if they care about that, and they can even shoot an old 40 gun and minor if they want and not be at a capacity disadvantage

[IHAVEGAS]

28 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

There is no logical reason to leave PD at 10 rounds anymore, especially with all the other modifications that one can do to a PD blaster.

 

There is for those of us who think the added accuracy challenge (miss steel do standing reload) and the stage planning  and the extra reloads are a big part of what makes production fun. We seem to be few and far between and are likely a dying breed. Another thing I really like is 0 magazine issues and near 0 magazine maintenance. 

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Another thing I really like is 0 magazine issues and near 0 magazine maintenance. 

 

I get what you're getting at on the first part, but how would this change by going to 15 rounds?

[IHAVEGAS]

Just now, RJH said:

 

I get what you're getting at on the first part, but how would this change by going to 15 rounds?

Perhaps it would not. The mag dimensions might hold up to years of rough use at 15 rounds just like they do at 10, or it might be like shooting other divisions where tuning a mag once a year or whatever is sometimes necessary for ideal reliability. 

46 minutes ago, RJH said:

they can even shoot an old 40 gun and minor if they want and not be at a capacity disadvantage

I'm used to CZ's and Tanfo's (14 round mags in 40) , I assume you could make a +1 base pad work within the production rules. 

[louu]

There's like 13 or 14 states that are limited to 10 round magazines for normal people. Why do they feel the need to f*#k that up? 

 

Besides the fact that it means more s#!t to buy even for guys in free states that currently only have 10 round mags for production. 

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Perhaps it would not. The mag dimensions might hold up to years of rough use at 15 rounds just like they do at 10, or it might be like shooting other divisions where tuning a mag once a year or whatever is sometimes necessary for ideal reliability. 

I'm used to CZ's and Tanfo's (14 round mags in 40) , I assume you could make a +1 base pad work within the production rules. 

 

 

Interesting, I didn't realize that czs and tangfos only held 14. I know most of the plastic guns hold at least 15 from the factory in 40, glocks m&p's XDS etc. Although I do think Beretta is only hold like 12 or something, so not all the 40 calibers would be good to go

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, louu said:

There's like 13 or 14 states that are limited to 10 round magazines for normal people. Why do they feel the need to f*#k that up? 

 

Besides the fact that it means more s#!t to buy even for guys in free states that currently only have 10 round mags for production. 

 

I mean anybody that bought a factory gun after 2004 in a free state probably already has mags that are completely fine and they've been downloading them for almost 20 years

 

And there's already a rule that covers those states that don't allow more than 10 rounds. Not sure how allowing 15 round mags would screw anything up

 

 

 

[louu]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I mean anybody that bought a factory gun after 2004 in a free state probably already has mags that are completely fine and they've been downloading them for almost 20 years

 

And there's already a rule that covers those states that don't allow more than 10 rounds. Not sure how allowing 15 round mags would screw anything up

 

 

 

There's not fences around restricted states (yet). People travel all the time to free states to shoot matches and vise versa. All the guys that are not cops that come to NJ to shoot are extremely scared and have an extra set of 10 round mags to shoot here and new york

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, louu said:

There's not fences around restricted states (yet). People travel all the time to free states to shoot matches and vise versa. All the guys that are not cops that come to NJ to shoot are extremely scared and have an extra set of 10 round mags to shoot here and new york

 

 

Gotcha

 

I watch some Matt hemple videos from time to time and have noticed he does the same thing. When shooting in a freer state he has big mags and when he is shooting in a commie State he has his 10 rounders. 

 

I still think 15 is better overall however, and if guys are going to go state to state, buying a hundred or 150 bucks worth of magazines is not really that big of a deal. Especially considering that 3/4 or so of the nation does not have the mag restrictions, and it would actually save those guys a few bucks

[858]

<Spends $2k on a production pistol>

<Objects to a new $20 magazine>

 

 

[Ice36]

 Big issue is not shooting in a state that limits capacity, its if you live in a state that is illegal and you want to shoot in another state and you only have 10 round mags when everyone else has 15 or violate the law in your state and have them for travel. The other thing is that most matches are not low cap friendly already and adding more capacity how with this change stage design or make for more rule changes to stages

Edited September 10, 2023 by Ice36

[IHAVEGAS]

16 minutes ago, Ice36 said:

The other thing is that most matches are not low cap friendly already

 

I don't understand that comment. 

[Ice36]

Where at the start of a stage you have more than 8 shots but because they say you can see them from another spot or that you turned its more than one view, forcing standing reloads or finish a stage with more than 8 shots but because you could have shot them from a much harder position. it's within the rules and everyone in the same class has the same reload issues but when you have to do a standing reload at the start of a stage over and over again, its not competitive for the overall.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Ice36

[rowdyb]

With the options being either 10 or 15, I went ahead and voted for 15 this time around. Interesting that it looks like it could go into being Jan 1.

 

Also, "but I'd have to spend more money" aka sunk cost, is a logical fallacy. It's not a good reason for making decisions.

[sc68cal]

6 hours ago, Ice36 said:

Where at the start of a stage you have more than 8 shots but because they say you can see them from another spot or that you turned its more than one view, forcing standing reloads or finish a stage with more than 8 shots but because you could have shot them from a much harder position. it's within the rules and everyone in the same class has the same reload issues but when you have to do a standing reload at the start of a stage over and over again, its not competitive for the overall.

 

This is sadly an issue with bad stage designs. Designers are getting very creative with the definition of a position and it's not fair to the lowcap divisions. Talk to your club match director and ask them to stop making stages that punish low cap divisions. It is very easy to design stages that are fun, interesting, and don't punish divisions. It just takes someone actually caring