USPSA Survey moving production to 15 rounds.

[Racinready300ex]

If prod increases the capacity I'll shoot it some. Probably bounce between LO and Prod. 

 

For me it'll depend on turn out at least a little. I planned to shoot the rest of this year in prod, Our Area match had like 30 shooters, not bad. So every club match this summer I shot prod by myself in preparation. I'm cool with being the only guy at a club match. I planned to continue to shoot it until the level 2 coming in a few weeks. But turns out there are only 5 or 6 prod shooters. So I bailed for LO. I'm not spending hundreds on entry fee plus travel etc all to shoot against 5 guys. 

 

Currently the division is basically dead, it's right there with revolver and L10 in irrelevant town.  

 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

No offense intended, but I shoot production 10,  have shot what seems like 1,000 matches with a buddy that shoots ss major and another buddy that shoots revolver 8 and I used to shoot ss 8. Stage planning is often very different, it is amazing how much that extra 2 or 3 rounds changes things. 

 

 

Wow, if only single stack minor was an option........ Oh wait LOL

 

 

And if people think single stack minor is a big disadvantage at any match that is not single stack Nationals, all they got to do is look at the overalls and compare production to single stack and see who wins a large majority of the time.

 

And I'm a guy who used to shoot a lot of production and single stack. Most of my single stack shooting was Major though. But I actually moved up in class shooting minor, crazy as that sounds

[IHAVEGAS]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

And if people think single stack minor is a big disadvantage at any match that is not single stack Nationals, all they got to do is look at the overalls and compare production to single stack and see who wins a large majority of the time.

 

Agreed. If you don't mind deliberately being at a disadvantage in your division you can shoot ss or limited in minor and production tends to attract the younger and faster shooters than single stack. 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by IHAVEGAS

[RJH]

45 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Agreed. If you don't mind deliberately being at a disadvantage in your division you can shoot ss or limited in minor and production tends to attract the younger and faster shooters than single stack. 

 

 

The problem with this statement is, unless you are at single stack Nationals, and more than likely only if it's a standalone match, minor is not a disadvantage in single stack. If you don't believe me there's a lot of years worth of overall results that show you competitors that are on fairly equal footing in single stack and production finish about the same at level 2 and up matches. Obviously still excluding standalone single stack Nationals

 

Limited min versus limited major is a straw man argument in this instance and you know it so, I'm not even going to get into that

Edited September 12, 2023 by RJH

[whan]

As someone who shot SS exclusively for 3 years, and specifically SS minor (also as a young person under 30), I agree that on anything that isn’t nats or classifiers, minor is probably the way to go. More options in stage planning, and less risk - a lot of stage plans shooting major would require parts going 8 rounds including multiple steel, so forces you to go 1:1

Edited September 12, 2023 by whan

[Fishbreath]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

The problem with this statement is, unless you are at single stack Nationals, and more than likely only if it's a standalone match, minor is not a disadvantage in single stack.

 

At all major matches going back to 2018, the Single Stack winner has shot major 304 times and minor 124 times.

[MBM1969]

New guy to the forum and new guy to USPSA shooting here.  I don't understand why so much difference between Carry Optics and Production.  Guns for both come from the Production gun list.  Shouldn't the only difference be iron sights vs a red dot?  Limited/Limited optics is this way, isn't it?  Same guns and modifications just iron sights and red dots?  

 

I came into shooting thinking my iron sight production gun would be best for Production.  Everyone told me to avoid the 10 round mag limit and shoot Limited.  Would love to see Carry Optics and Production be the same guns and same mag rounds and the only differenced Iron Sights & Red Dots.  Change both to 15 rounds or both to the 140mm mags.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Fishbreath said:

 

At all major matches going back to 2018, the Single Stack winner has shot major 304 times and minor 124 times.

 

And how does that compare with production? Because production and single stack compare head to head as far as equipment goes. So beginning to say that single stack minor is at a disadvantage it's just not true in almost every match out there

 

 

Seriously, let me know how many times single stack major beat a production gun if that's not too hard to do

[Fishbreath]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

Seriously, let me know how many times single stack major beat a production gun if that's not too hard to do

 

Mostly what it shows is that Production has always had more heat than Single Stack: of 428 matches, 418 were won in Production, 9 were won in Single Stack major, and 1 was won in Single Stack minor.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Mostly what it shows is that Production has always had more heat than Single Stack: of 428 matches, 418 were won in Production, 9 were won in Single Stack major, and 1 was won in Single Stack minor.

 

It also shows that 10 rounds of minor is at no disadvantage to eight rounds of major. Crazy, right LOL

 

The other thing it shows is that a reloading advantage to a gun that you have to reload a lot is an advantage. You also have to add in the fact that with major or minor you need to aim because you can't afford the reload if you're shooting major, and you need to keep all the points you can shooting minor. So being sloppy with a major gun generally is not an advantage

Edited September 12, 2023 by RJH

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

It also shows that 10 rounds of minor is at no disadvantage to eight rounds of major. Crazy, right LOL

 

 

 

Is that what it shows? If the heat is in Production the winner will be production most of the time. Doesn't really prove there is or isn't a advantage. 

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Is that what it shows? If the heat is in Production the winner will be production most of the time. Doesn't really prove there is or isn't a advantage. 

 

 

Would it show it if he was able to run his program and pick out who won in "a" class instead of division winners?

 

I think the numbers might actually tighten up a little bit in something like a or b class, but it's still going to prove that overall 10 rounds of minor is not a disadvantage to eight rounds of major in basically every match out there other than single stack Nationals.

 

If his program will run it, maybe he will look at a and b class, maybe even m class as well. I don't think any logical conclusions could be drawn from c&d class however, as I think consistency would be all over the map at that point

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Would it show it if he was able to run his program and pick out who won in "a" class instead of division winners?

 

I think the numbers might actually tighten up a little bit in something like a or b class, but it's still going to prove that overall 10 rounds of minor is not a disadvantage to eight rounds of major in basically every match out there other than single stack Nationals.

 

If his program will run it, maybe he will look at a and b class, maybe even m class as well. I don't think any logical conclusions could be drawn from c&d class however, as I think consistency would be all over the map at that point

 

Honestly in a armature sport with such broad skill levels where there is no perfect score and every stage is different I don't think it's really possible to prove one way or another. Makes it hard to speak in absolutes. 

 

 

[sc68cal]

1 hour ago, MBM1969 said:

New guy to the forum and new guy to USPSA shooting here.  I don't understand why so much difference between Carry Optics and Production.  Guns for both come from the Production gun list.  Shouldn't the only difference be iron sights vs a red dot?  Limited/Limited optics is this way, isn't it?  Same guns and modifications just iron sights and red dots?

 

There are a lot of historical reasons for why things have turned out this way, but I think your perspective as a new shooter exactly illustrates a good reason for having production increase the magazine capacity. From the outside, the 10 round limit does not make sense anymore.

[BritinUSA]

2 hours ago, MBM1969 said:

New guy to the forum and new guy to USPSA shooting here.  I don't understand why so much difference between Carry Optics and Production.  Guns for both come from the Production gun list.  Shouldn't the only difference be iron sights vs a red dot?  Limited/Limited optics is this way, isn't it?  Same guns and modifications just iron sights and red dots? 

That was the original intent by the few people that started the process to add the division. It was to be called Production Optics, same gun and ruleset as Production with the only variation being those changes necessary to accommodate a red-dot.

 

This is the ruleset that IPSC (the rest of the world) followed.

 

There have been several long running threads about it, the first goes all the way back to 2012 when the proposal was first made.

 

Link to first thread:

 

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, RJH said:

Limited min versus limited major is a straw man argument in this instance and you know it so, I'm not even going to get into that

 

It is easier to demonstrate that limited scoring minor is a disadvantage in general, whether or not that is the case in ss is very debatable as noted in comments above, and I would agree that if someone wants to buy both major and minor ss guns and components then they don't have to show up at a match with the less ideal choice.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by IHAVEGAS

[ampleworks]

I'd run production again at 15 rounds just to get trigger time on my most hated platforms, Glock, simply for the fact of practice for GSSF. Otherwise leaving it at 10, I have no real use for it except for instances of lowcap matches like Lafe's this year.

[Fishbreath]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

It also shows that 10 rounds of minor is at no disadvantage to eight rounds of major.

 

It doesn't show that at all. Unfortunately, I'm not doing this in a context where I have access to my ratings data, so I have to fall back on classification, but the average Production winner at majors since 2018 is between M and GM, while the average Single Stack winner is between B and A.

 

The only conclusion we can really draw is from the data that shows like competitors against like, Single Stack against Single Stack, and in that data, minor is substantially disadvantaged across a broad set of matches, even down two rounds.

[shred]

I shot Single Stack Minor seriously for a couple years.  Won an Area match, IPSC Pan American and did ok at the World Shoot and Nationals.

 

My experience was, for the average USPSA major match that follows 1.2.1, Minor SS is usually at a slight disadvantage to Major SS in the hands of a good shooter that has a good grip, isn't going to waste ammo and can reload well.  A few matches bias more strongly one way or the other, but they are the outliers. 

 

IPSC matches because they have a 9 round version of 1.2.1 sometimes can screw Major shooters more.

[BritinUSA]

I know that both Leatham and Jarrett took both calibers to the 2014 WS in Florida. After scoping out the stages they each chose Minor.

Edited September 13, 2023 by BritinUSA

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

It doesn't show that at all. Unfortunately, I'm not doing this in a context where I have access to my ratings data, so I have to fall back on classification, but the average Production winner at majors since 2018 is between M and GM, while the average Single Stack winner is between B and A.

 

The only conclusion we can really draw is from the data that shows like competitors against like, Single Stack against Single Stack, and in that data, minor is substantially disadvantaged across a broad set of matches, even down two rounds.

 

So, compare a class to a class in production and single stack. I bet production/single stack minor people still come out ahead. I shot enough single stack to know that minor versus major is a wash at best and basically tends towards minor, obviously not counting single stack Nationals as it is geared toward eight rounds guns. Get a hold of your data and tell me what it says, but I got  50 bucks says I ain't wrong

 

 

If you want to take the bet before you look at your data, let me know. After you look at your data the BET don't count. Lol

 

So, let me know what A class single stack major versus A class production/ a class ss minor says at level 2 matches, not counting single stack Nationals. That's the bet. Even if you are out on the bet, let me know what the data says anyway 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I know that both Leatham and Jarrett took both calibers to the 2014 WS in Florida. After scoping out the stages they each chose Minor.

 

. . . . . my guess is that those two know how single stack works. 

[rowdyb]

10 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I know that both Leatham and Jarrett took both calibers to the 2014 WS in Florida. After scoping out the stages they each chose Minor.

Most people I know who are capital S serious about single stack will do this. You bring both set ups and decide when you've seen the stages. Also why for a time, 40sw 1911's were so popular. As you know....

 

My prod-15 experience is only in shooting it under the disguise of Lim minor to prepare for US IPSC Nats or actually at US IPSC Nats over the years. So I've done it on uspsa stages and ipsc stages. The only time you're screwed is if you're absolutley forced into an 8/8/8/8 set of arrays. Then having 16 in the gun and 15 in each mag seems just not quite enough.

[rowdyb]

I know I'd happily switch to 3 pouches on my belt, the first with a magnet. Versus the 5 I run now, also with a magnet on the first.

[Fishbreath]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

So, let me know what A class single stack major versus A class production/ a class ss minor says at level 2 matches, not counting single stack Nationals. That's the bet. Even if you are out on the bet, let me know what the data says anyway 

 

Can't roll Production in because it skews things. If there are 5 times as many Production shooters and there is no difference between minor/major, then a random choice is five times as likely to show up as Production.

 

That said, here's the breakdown of wins vs. entries in Single Stack:

 

SS major entries: 38.2%
SS minor entries: 61.8%
SS major wins: 71.0%
SS minor wins: 29.0%

 

So about 6 in 10 Single Stack L2+ match entries are in minor, but 7 in 10 winners are shooting major.