Carry Optics Shooters, Would you support 15-round CO?

[whan]

Since USPSA didn't include it in the survey: Carry Optics Shooters, Would you support 15-round CO? This is assuming LO remains in its current provisional format with minor and 140mm magazines.

[RangerTrace]

I just started shooting CO in USPSA and I'd prefer to keep it the way it is.

[Cuz]

A 15 round limit makes no sense (to me). Either keep it the way it is, or go with a 10 round limit to comply with some new mag capacity restrictions that are popping up in RI, and are already in place in some states. In fact, maybe consider splitting it into CO and CO-10 for restricted states. 

[Matt1911]

I think it needs to be toned down a bit and get closer to the name of the division. Since LO is now a thing, they’re just way too similar in my opinion. 

[nitrohuck]

Personally I'd be for it, and I feel it would draw more of a distinction between CO and LO 

 

Also, it's a great excuse for me to throw a magwell on my Shadow 2, and let my wife know I'll be buying a TS2 Orange in the future 

[Racinready300ex]

It's interesting to see the lower weight and fit box restrictions have similar numbers but a heavier trigger the numbers flip. And that's with out even saying what that minimum pull would be. 

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, Cuz said:

A 15 round limit makes no sense (to me). Either keep it the way it is, or go with a 10 round limit to comply with some new mag capacity restrictions that are popping up in RI, and are already in place in some states. In fact, maybe consider splitting it into CO and CO-10 for restricted states. 

 

There really isn't a need to add CO-10 just like L10 isn't needed either. Restricted states CO is still the most popular division.

[whan]

4 hours ago, Cuz said:

A 15 round limit makes no sense (to me). Either keep it the way it is, or go with a 10 round limit to comply with some new mag capacity restrictions that are popping up in RI, and are already in place in some states. In fact, maybe consider splitting it into CO and CO-10 for restricted states. 

 

I think the main point is to make the CO division less "racy" particularly now that LO essentially fills that exact same purpose (and honestly fills it better given it removes any pretense of factory guns). I've made my opinions known in other threads, but generally am supportive of the various restrictions I proposed to do so, and think 15 rounds is a nice middle ground of limiting the full on run-and-gun nature of 140mm mags without being as punishing as 10 rounds (AKA required load between almost every position). Currently shooting CO with 23+1 140mm, I find it very easy to just plan 1 reload for the entire stage, and essentially have nearly unlimited makeup shots (If you split a 32 round stage 16/16 or even 20/12 you have 4-8 makeups). 15 rounds would mean trying to shoot an 8 and 6 round position with one mag would only provide 1-2 makeup shots. Two 8 round positions would probably force a reload in between, more careful shooting to go to slidelock (no makeups), or some stage planning to figure out how to split one of the positions.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by whan

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

CO was less racy !

it did just happen to be this way it was made this way. 
not really sure you can go back now. 

[whan]

17 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

CO was less racy !

it did just happen to be this way it was made this way. 
not really sure you can go back now. 

 

I'd argue you can now that LO is a thing - pretty easy transition for CO shooters that like the current ruleset. Plop on a $50-100 magwell and you're nearly exactly as competitive in LO as you were in CO before

 

Separately, interesting how the results have now turned out. Looks like a 60%/40% split in general for making CO 15 rounds and less racy in general, with the exception of trigger weight limits

[waktasz]

I have an idea. Let's take the most popular division and f*#k it all up

 

This poll sounds like communism. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by waktasz

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I have an idea. Let's take the most popular division and f*#k it all up

 

This poll sounds like communism. 

 

Really, messing with any division effects all of them. CO killed Production and limited which were pretty popular at the time. 

 

Limited Optics has killed CO, CO just doesn't know it yet. 

[ddc]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Limited Optics has killed CO, CO just doesn't know it yet. 

 

If that turns out to be true then it won't really matter what the CO mag limits are.

[terrydoc]

Why cater for States with mag restrictions? They shoot 10 rounds against each other so whats the difference? If they go to a freeer state to shoot I'm sure someone would be able to help out with bigger mags.

As an outsider IPSC in Australia I never understood L10 as a division either.

Edited July 24, 2023 by terrydoc

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, terrydoc said:

Why cater for States with mag restrictions? They shoot 10 rounds against each other so whats the difference? If they go to a freeer state to shoot I'm sure someone would be able to help out with bigger mags.

As an outsider IPSC in Australia I never understood L10 as a division either.

came about when the 10 round thing was nation wide.. I think it was also a time before single stack was a division, and single stacks had a mag length exception to the 140 mm rule, So there were 10 round 1911 shooters. Was a time when USPSA was spinning off from IPSC, and a reaction to the start and growth of IDPA.

[shred]

I was shooting at the time.  IIRC L10 had nothing to do with IPSC, maybe some response to IDPA which went 10 across the board, but mostly it was because of the 1994 AWB's 10 round limit and old-timer single-stack shooters complaining about being out-gunned by the newly-legal-for-Limited a few months before the AWB STI .40s, which itself was not long after they'd gotten Limited Class (it was a Class then) installed because they were annoyed about the 'rooney guns' taking over since all guns really did compete together equally back then.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, ddc said:

 

If that turns out to be true then it won't really matter what the CO mag limits are.

 

I think the thinking is if you restrict CO more you can create some separation in the two divisions and perhaps keep both viable. Probably a discussion we can table until CO is dwindling. My guess would be a year or two.

[Joe4d]

17 hours ago, waktasz said:

I have an idea. Let's take the most popular division and f*#k it all up

 

This poll sounds like communism. 

LOL....agreed.. 
Yep,, screw up the most popular division because we just had to create another division that's nearly the same.

[waktasz]

Adding LO didn't change what CO is though. The suggestions in this thread would.

[Boomstick303]

Not sure what it hurts to keep the divisions the same as they are currently constructed.  Who really cares if LO and CO are similar.  

 

The only change I could see right now that "Might" make any difference is allowing Production mag increase to 15 rounds or 140 mm mags.  Other than that leave stuff alone.  See what happens.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

Not sure what it hurts to keep the divisions the same as they are currently constructed.  Who really cares if LO and CO are similar.  

 

The only change I could see right now that "Might" make any difference is allowing Production mag increase to 15 rounds or 140 mm mags.  Other than that leave stuff alone.  See what happens.

 

The only think that sucks about the current system is after a major you need to combine the two divisions in PS to see where everyone really stacked up. 

[motosapiens]

personally i would like to see lower weight and lower capacity in CO, in which case I would continue to shoot it unless the weight went below a stock S2. if that happened I would probably switch to LO.

 

However I don't know that I feel all that strongly about minor divisions. mrs moto is already shooting open. I may end up there eventually, since I'm not skeered of recoil or reloading.

[Dazhi]

4 hours ago, waktasz said:

Adding LO didn't change what CO is though. The suggestions in this thread would.

I think 2011 will become mainstream if LO is added to CO.  I know I would switch to 2011 if LO becomes CO.  The 2-5% gain by spending more money is worth it.    It also creates a huge discrepancy between USPSA CO and IPSC Production Optics.  

[waktasz]

Absolutely. The divisions that allow 2011s are essentially dominated by 2011s. 

[ddc]

4 hours ago, Dazhi said:

I think 2011 will become mainstream if LO is added to CO.  I know I would switch to 2011 if LO becomes CO.  The 2-5% gain by spending more money is worth it.    It also creates a huge discrepancy between USPSA CO and IPSC Production Optics.  

 

Is that discrepancy something to worry about? To my mind it is not but maybe I'm missing something.

 

The USPSA people that shoot IPSC already need equipment specific to that discipline.

I'm guessing the majority of USPSA CO rigs I see would be illegal for IPSC. I know mine is.

Adding 2011's to USPSA CO isn't going to change a thing as far as that is concerned.