shooting limited optics with your current carry optics gun

[Stafford]

I've seen a couple of guys run their CO gun in LO. Both were Shadow 2's. One guy added an extended safety, *thumb rest [generic]*, heavy magwell and is starting cocked and locked. The other didn't change anything on his S2 and is starting in DA. He has a 2011 on the way though.

[shred]

Seen a few people shooting LO with straight-up CO gear just to get an LO classifier score.  

 

[GigG]

I did it this weekend because we had an all classifier match.

[Stafford]

I actually liked the additions the one guy did to his Shadow 2. No, a magwell, extended safety and thumb rest won't make him or me a better shooter. Shooting cocked and locked and dropping the safety on the draw is something I've never done. All in all, it would be something different to try out. 

[ColoradoNick]

Shot 22-05 this week twice, once in CO and once in LO. Kinda funny that LO percentages were lower than CO on a classifier where you had mandatory reloads! I shot them both with my CO Shadow 2 and still used DA/SA but I'll be setting one of my two Shadow 2's up with a Magwell to facilitate better reloads for an eventual switch to LO. I'm not convinced they won't introduce Major scoring, in which case I'll probably stay in CO. Either way getting my first LO classifier score which happens to be my highest classifier (82.8) with my Carry Optics gun felt good. LOL

Edited June 18, 2023 by ColoradoNick

[Nobody909]

Very interesting to look at scores of major matches and seeing the winning of limited optics barely being in the top 5 if they were moved to CO, but the classifier hit factors are higher in LO than CO?

 

Is all the heat just staying in CO? or are LO gun not as fast as every one thought they were gonna be?

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, Nobody909 said:

Very interesting to look at scores of major matches and seeing the winning of limited optics barely being in the top 5 if they were moved to CO, but the classifier hit factors are higher in LO than CO?

 

Is all the heat just staying in CO? or are LO gun not as fast as every one thought they were gonna be?

 

I think classifier scores being higher in limited optics is basically down to the mag well and possibly the holster, but really just the magwell.

 

As far as match scores go it is wholly dependent upon who is shooting what gun. At the last local match I shot, limited optics beat carry optics in the overall. That could very easily reverse at the next local

 

 

[Rich406]

1 hour ago, Nobody909 said:

Very interesting to look at scores of major matches and seeing the winning of limited optics barely being in the top 5 if they were moved to CO, but the classifier hit factors are higher in LO than CO?

 

Is all the heat just staying in CO? or are LO gun not as fast as every one thought they were gonna be?

Seems like, most people that are shooting CO, especially the top shooters are either taking wait and see approach or are simply happy where they are. 
 

LO will take a few years to ramp up, just like CO did. 

[stick]

They should just rename LO to "The Staccato Division"

[Joe4d]

Only been saying for 20 years, in USPSA matches separating divisions by trigger is full retard...and you never want to go full retard... Striker guns made trigger divisions stupid..  What is really sad is even IDPA seems to have figured that out.
Anyone that says a 2011 trigger has a competitive advantage over a tuned striker trigger like a walther, canick or XDM (those are just the ones I have shot) is FOS as a Christmas goose. 

Uspsa is looking like another game trying to create a rule set to favor a particular gun that one person who makes the rules also happens to make.

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Anyone that says a 2011 trigger has a competitive advantage over a tuned striker trigger like a walther, canick or XDM (those are just the ones I have shot) is FOS as a Christmas goose. 

 

if that were true, then people would be running striker guns in open and limited.... but they're generally not unless a sponsor demands it. In every division where a 2011 is allowed, they utterly dominate, and everyone uses them unless they are paid enough to use something else.

[ColoradoNick]

6 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Only been saying for 20 years, in USPSA matches separating divisions by trigger is full retard...and you never want to go full retard... Striker guns made trigger divisions stupid..  What is really sad is even IDPA seems to have figured that out.
Anyone that says a 2011 trigger has a competitive advantage over a tuned striker trigger like a walther, canick or XDM (those are just the ones I have shot) is FOS as a Christmas goose. 

 

Yea I don't believe this at all. I've never felt a tuned Stryker fire trigger that even compares to my cajunized shadow 2. 

[Maximis228]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoNick said:

Yea I don't believe this at all. I've never felt a tuned Stryker fire trigger that even compares to my cajunized shadow 2. 

and even the cajunized shadows dont come close to a properly tuned 2011 trigger. But they are as close as it gets IMO. 

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

if that were true, then people would be running striker guns in open and limited

 

I am not sure I can get on board with this.  If striker fired guns held up to Major PF you would see more of them in Open and Limited.  Limited to a lesser degree, but definitely in Open.  I think it has less to do with the trigger and more to do with handling Major PF.  

 

While I understand that some striker fired guns have been used in Limited using Major PF, it just is not a thing.  Also what Striker fired guns were available when Open and Limited divisions started?  I have no idea that is why I am asking.

 

[mreed911]

19 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I am not sure I can get on board with this.  If striker fired guns held up to Major PF you would see more of them in Open and Limited.  Limited to a lesser degree, but definitely in Open.  I think it has less to do with the trigger and more to do with handling Major PF.  

 

Not to mention gun weight - polymer vs. metal.  How many folks running a 22oz OEM Glock 34 in Limited/Open?

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I am not sure I can get on board with this.  If striker fired guns held up to Major PF you would see more of them in Open and Limited.  Limited to a lesser degree, but definitely in Open.  I think it has less to do with the trigger and more to do with handling Major PF.  

 

While I understand that some striker fired guns have been used in Limited using Major PF, it just is not a thing.  Also what Striker fired guns were available when Open and Limited divisions started?  I have no idea that is why I am asking.

 

 

I think you're right. There really aren't any good Open striker setups and vary few limited options. When you add major into the equation the 2011 is IMO hands down a better platform. 

 

Shooting minor I think the gap is much smaller than it used to be. 10 or 12 years ago the gap between a 2011 and a striker gun (basically glock) what pretty huge. Now the gap is much more narrow. I just picked up a plastic canik, the trigger currently is 2.25 lbs which is lighter than some of my 1911's. But, it has more take up, there is some creep, it's not got that crispness. If you're a trigger snob, it's not nearly the same as a SAO. Does that matter in a match? No. 

 

Just now, mreed911 said:

 

Not to mention gun weight - polymer vs. metal.  How many folks running a 22oz OEM Glock 34 in Limited/Open?

 

People have been filling flashlights with lead to shoot glocks in limited for a long time. You'll have trouble getting plastic up to 50-55 oz like many limited guns. But 40-45 should be doable. 

[Boomstick303]

7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Shooting minor I think the gap is much smaller than it used to be. 10 or 12 years ago the gap between a 2011 and a striker gun (basically glock) what pretty huge. Now the gap is much more narrow. I just picked up a plastic canik, the trigger currently is 2.25 lbs which is lighter than some of my 1911's. But, it has more take up, there is some creep, it's not got that crispness. If you're a trigger snob, it's not nearly the same as a SAO. Does that matter in a match? No. 

 

One of my points about LO, or allowing SA guns in CO is that one of the reasons you see only 2011 in Limited an Open, it that 1911/2011 guns were really the only viable options when Limited and Open were created.  Really the only platform that would handle Major PF with any sort of reliability. 

 

We have yet to see a division where Minor guns are on a level playing field scoring wise, in to what gun(s) will proliferate the division when 2011 and Plastic guns start on a level playing field from the jump.  This is one of the reasons, I think it is smart to see what happens to a Minor only division on which guns will proliferate it which happens to be LO.  If LO was Minor and Major, you would never see this data point.  

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

One of my points about LO, or allowing SA guns in CO is that one of the reasons you see only 2011 in Limited an Open, it that 1911/2011 guns were really the only viable options when Limited and Open were created.  Really the only platform that would handle Major PF with any sort of reliability. 

 

We have yet to see a division where Minor guns are on a level playing field scoring wise, in to what gun(s) will proliferate the division when 2011 and Plastic guns start on a level playing field from the jump.  This is one of the reasons, I think it is smart to see what happens to a Minor only division on which guns will proliferate it which happens to be LO.  If LO was Minor and Major, you would never see this data point.  

 

 

I think we're seeing at least at the top. The local state match the other day had a CO shooter a fantasy division, and it wasn't a national champion guy. So it shows there isn't as massive of a difference as we think there is. 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

So it shows there isn't as massive of a difference as we think there is. 

 

I agree.

 

Kind of what I have been saying the whole time when talking about the differences in platforms.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Boomstick303

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I am not sure I can get on board with this.  If striker fired guns held up to Major PF you would see more of them in Open and Limited.  Limited to a lesser degree, but definitely in Open.  I think it has less to do with the trigger and more to do with handling Major PF.  

 

I don't think that's really it. glock and m&p have been selling plastic 40's for many years and they run fine and seem to hold up. There also don't appear to be any issues with the converted sig 320's. The striker 40's that have been run in limited have been very very reliable, but since they're just not as easy to shoot as a 2011, no one except maybe bob vogel will use them unless they are paid. (coley, mason lane, KC for a while, etc....). One of the guns I got started in competition with was an m&p40, and I put many thousands of rounds through it without a hiccup, but since I'm not paid to do this, I upgraded to a better gun eventually.

 

The reason you don't see more striker guns is that 2011's are objectively better for shooting, and everyone knows it.

Edited June 27, 2023 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

glock and m&p have been selling plastic 40's for many years and they run fine and seem to hold up. There also don't appear to be any issues with the converted sig 320's.

 

Just because you can does not mean you should.  You addressed mostly 40 and zero open guns.  Sponsored shooters get away with shooting 40 in Limited because they get paid to do so and get free and/or discounted equipment i.e. guns.  You also did not mention the fact that when Limited and Open started Striker fired guns were not really a thing.   We can agree to disagree that plastic guns do not hold up in Major PF applications.  People will play around with plastic guns in Major PF applications, but they never really last especially open.  I would love to play in open at a discount by using a plastic gun.  I will not be converting any of my P320s to play in Open Major anytime soon.   Why?  Because the will not last long at all.  

 

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

The reason you don't see more striker guns is that 2011's are objectively better for shooting, and everyone knows it.

 

We agree here.  They are better guns and a better platform when used in Major Ammo applications.  

 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 We can agree to disagree that plastic guns do not hold up in Major PF applications.  People will play around with plastic guns in Major PF applications, but they never really last especially open.  I would love to play in open at a discount by using a plastic gun.  I will not be converting any of my P320s to play in Open Major anytime soon.   Why?  Because the will not last long at all.  

Can you be specific? what longevity problems did bob vogel (or anyone else, for that matter) have with his major glocks? There are still plenty of police departments shooting glock 40's without issue. Which part of the gun are you claiming is wearing out or breaking, and why isn't there any evidence of that happening?

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Can you be specific? what longevity problems did bob vogel (or anyone else, for that matter) have with his major glocks? There are still plenty of police departments shooting glock 40's without issue. Which part of the gun are you claiming is wearing out or breaking, and why isn't there any evidence of that happening?

 

He did mention Open and we keep glossing over that one. I think the lack of a hammer to cock, and needing more recoil spring to keep the gun in battery when you pull the trigger make striker guns inferior for open. 

 

There really aren't many options for 40, sure you could shoot a GG 320 like mason did but a 2011 is probably cheaper. Glock has been the go to for limited if you're doing a striker gun. But I feel like the shooter really takes a beating shooting one compared to a decent 2011. 

 

But, major is a different animal we're talking about a minor division. Can you help us understand how Hetherington was only 3% behind the top open guy at Area 6. Sailer was 1% behind KC at Area 4. Nils did get crushed at Area 5 being 6% back from open. Max was 95% at Dragons. Locally we just had Maryland state and Hemple finish a fantasy division. So if CO is 0-5% behind Open where does LO fall in line? Or maybe there just aren't any good open shooters left, everyone good shoot CO now. 

[MikeBurgess]

for Open most striker guns have 2 major short comings,

1 is the recoil spring needs to re-cock the striker making for a limited selection of usable springs and therefore a much smaller operating window.

2 the barrel tilts up at the muzzle as the slide cycles, menaining if you add something heavy like a comp it has to swing up and sown every time the slide cycles, this limits the size and material choices avaliable for comps.

 

For Limited guns I think the biggest put off is/was the small frame GLOCKs (G22/35) are pretty unpleasant to shoot compared to a 2011, and by the time any other competitors brought competition to that market the 2011 boat had sailed, that said a large frame GLOCK (G20/G40) are actually very nice to shoot and I would use one if limited wasn't a dead division.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

For Limited guns I think the biggest put off is/was the small frame GLOCKs (G22/35) are pretty unpleasant to shoot compared to a 2011, 

 

 

 

That's been my experience. Glocks in 40 just suck to shoot. And if you talk to anyone who's never competed and ask them about 40 most will hate it and most have only shot it out of a glock. Probably why outside of uspsa no one really wants to shoot 40 anymore.