shooting limited optics with your current carry optics gun

[mreed911]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That's been my experience. Glocks in 40 just suck to shoot. And if you talk to anyone who's never competed and ask them about 40 most will hate it and most have only shot it out of a glock. Probably why outside of uspsa no one really wants to shoot 40 anymore. 

 

I'm just waiting for Staccato to make a .40 and all of a sudden .40 cal be the new hotness again.  "10mm short! Tactical advantage!  Heavier bullets, bigger hollow points!"

[Darqusoull13]

On 5/23/2023 at 12:56 PM, shred said:

Seen a few people shooting LO with straight-up CO gear just to get an LO classifier score.  

 

Yep, I have been seeing a bit of that as well. It's tapering off around here as people get classified then lose interest. 

[Boomstick303]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Can you be specific? what longevity problems did bob vogel (or anyone else, for that matter) have with his major glocks? There are still plenty of police departments shooting glock 40's without issue. Which part of the gun are you claiming is wearing out or breaking, and why isn't there any evidence of that happening?

 

Specific how?  The fact you completely ignore the open discussion.  The fact that if Limited was a viable option using striker fired guns using Major PF would have a better showing in Limited.  Over the last 4 years of playing in this game you can't name more than like 5 guys that shoot Limited making Major PF.  If striker/plastic guns were a viable option in Limited Major you WOULD see more of them.  

 

Part of the discussion here is what is the most reliable platform for Major PF.  It is not the fact you can't shoot Major PF with plastic guns, its the fact it is not an ideal platform.  It has been for decades.  Above you mentioned the trigger is the major reason everyone shoots 2011/1911 in divisions that allow Major PF.  Is that what the majority of shooters think?   I would surmise, no

[mreed911]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Part of the discussion here is what is the most reliable platform for Major PF.  It is not the fact you can't shoot Major PF with plastic guns, its the fact it is not an ideal platform.  It has been for decades.  Above you mentioned the trigger is the major reason everyone shoots 2011/1911 in divisions that allow Major PF.  Is that what the majority of shooters think?   I would surmise, no

 

I'd argue the Glock 24 can handle major loads all day long.  Assuming trigger mechanics aren't the reason and assuming the 3rd party trigger options resolve that issue for a shooter at the A+ level, the question comes down to two things: capacity and gun performance.  Generally, the CZ's/2011's are heavier and have +2/+3 more rounds in a 140mm mag, so they "win" on both fronts.  You can tune springs on both guns, so that's not a likely factor.  You can replace sights on both guns, so that's unlikely.  It comes down to "why shoot a 25 oz gun, base, when I can shoot a 45 oz gun, base."  Sure, with the advent of non-functional, brass filled flashlights, things have changed in that division a bit, but I'd expect a .40 polymer competition pistol to handle major power factor just fine.  How it handles is likely the issue.

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

Sure, with the advent of non-functional, brass filled flashlights, things have changed in that division a bit, but I'd expect a .40 polymer competition pistol to handle major power factor just fine.  How it handles is likely the issue.

 

So we are saying the same thing then???

 

16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

It is not the fact you can't shoot Major PF with plastic guns, its the fact it is not an ideal platform

 

[mreed911]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

So we are saying the same thing then???

 

I think we all are... in different ways.  It's why I think LO should have mirrored Limited, not Carry Optics, so you had Major and Minor.  There's nearly zero difference using a polymer 9mm in CO vs. LO Minor, other than a magwell and thumb rest.

[Boomstick303]

As mentioned before I think it is beneficial to see what LO does as a Minor only division.  

 

If it goes Major/Minor down the road I can see the reason for that if the data indicates need for that change. 

 

If LO becomes a thing as currently constructed because say it is the second most popular division, do you change it then??  I do not know.  I would not be opposed to see what happens if you did open it up to major.  

 

I am not looking to debate SA guns in CO because that horse has been beat to death, but in my eyes, it would have been better if you allowed SA guns and magwells in CO and created LO with Major/Minor.  Then you have distinctly two different divisions. 

 

Or maybe even play with PF limits in LO.  Maybe create like a middle ground for PF in LO.  Then you still have PF playing out in another division, but yet it is different than CO and OPEN/Limited.  Say a PF of like 145 or 150 for LO makes Major.  This would open up Major PF to a lot more guns to where you could possibly see a division where you do see people actually using plastic guns in Major PF more often (instead of plastic guns in Major as an anomaly).  Think out of the box a bit.   

 

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 Can you help us understand how Hetherington was only 3% behind the top open guy at Area 6. Sailer was 1% behind KC at Area 4. Nils did get crushed at Area 5 being 6% back from open. Max was 95% at Dragons. Locally we just had Maryland state and Hemple finish a fantasy division. So if CO is 0-5% behind Open where does LO fall in line? Or maybe there just aren't any good open shooters left, everyone good shoot CO now. 

Christian was 3-6% ahead of KC at the first 3 national and area matches I could find in the last few years when both were shooting open.

 

4-7% advantage doesn't sound like alot, but even 1% is enough of an advantage that most anyone will choose the gun that provides the extra 1%, unless they are well paid to shoot an inferior gun. At last year's CO nats, 1% would move me up 12+ places.

[Nobody909]

23 hours ago, Rich406 said:

Seems like, most people that are shooting CO, especially the top shooters are either taking wait and see approach or are simply happy where they are. 
 

LO will take a few years to ramp up, just like CO did. 

That might be true. But there isn't that much difference in the two divisions. I think they will both be fighting for the same people to shoot them and not bring in the thousands more people like they thought it would.

[Keybler]

I shoot idpa and just started uspsa. Idpa carry optics allows magwell and da/sa trigger with the option to start condition SA. So for me, using the same gun, limited optics would be my division?

 

Otherwise I would have to take the magwell off and start Hammer down? Am I on the right track?

[waktasz]

exactly

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Christian was 3-6% ahead of KC at the first 3 national and area matches I could find in the last few years when both were shooting open.

 

4-7% advantage doesn't sound like alot, but even 1% is enough of an advantage that most anyone will choose the gun that provides the extra 1%, unless they are well paid to shoot an inferior gun. At last year's CO nats, 1% would move me up 12+ places.

 

1% can be a lot in a 21 stage match for sure. But 1% is going to be hard to nail down as being a result of slightly improved trigger. Especially considering how close CO finishes to Open when huge differences in those two divisions. 

 

Currently most of the majors here the LO winner was just shooting a CO gun likely hiding from the national talent in CO. The winning score in LO was like 90% of the CO winner. (unless no big names show up) I do wonder how long it'll take before a LO shooter finishes above the top CO shooter at a major. 

[RJH]

20 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

1% can be a lot in a 21 stage match for sure. But 1% is going to be hard to nail down as being a result of slightly improved trigger. Especially considering how close CO finishes to Open when huge differences in those two divisions. 

 

Currently most of the majors here the LO winner was just shooting a CO gun likely hiding from the national talent in CO. The winning score in LO was like 90% of the CO winner. (unless no big names show up) I do wonder how long it'll take before a LO shooter finishes above the top CO shooter at a major. 

 

It will take about as long as it takes somebody like Christian s to show up at a area match or other major match with an lo gun. It'll be somebody like him that's not sponsored by sig, beretta, glock, canic, etc. Or it'll be when one of those guys that are sponsored by those companies decide to throw a magwell on their gun and shoot in limited optics, well they don't really even need the mag well LOL

Edited June 28, 2023 by RJH

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

It will take about as long as it takes somebody like Christian s to show up at a area match or other major match with an lo gun. It'll be somebody like him that's not sponsored by sig, beretta, glock, canic, etc. Or it'll be when one of those guys that are sponsored by those companies decide to throw a magwell on their gun and shoot in limited optics

 

Really it'll be more interesting to see someone switch to LO with a LO rig and then they perform better. I know for me it didn't matter. The majors I've shot I just combined LO and CO results and my finish was basically in line with where it normally is. The gun didn't make me magically better, shocker. 

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Really it'll be more interesting to see someone switch to LO with a LO rig and then they perform better. I know for me it didn't matter. The majors I've shot I just combined LO and CO results and my finish was basically in line with where it normally is. The gun didn't make me magically better, shocker. 

 

 

Wait a minute, are you saying my lo gun did not come with a GM card..?

 

Damn it they got me again

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Wait a minute, are you saying my lo gun did not come with a GM card..?

 

Damn it they got me again

 

Maybe we didn't spend enough. Wut else could it be??

[Boomstick303]

30 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The gun didn't make me magically better, shocker. 

 

 You mean we could have allowed SA guns in CO and nothing would have changed?  Shocking.

[motosapiens]

27 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 You mean we could have allowed SA guns in CO and nothing would have changed?  Shocking.

These are two completely different things.

1. buying a different gun doesn't make you instantly better. (duh)

2. allowing SA guns in CO would change the division dramatically, and after a year or two, everyone would be shooting SA guns, just like they are in every other division where SA guns are allowed. (duh)

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

2. allowing SA guns in CO would change the division dramatically, and after a year or two, everyone would be shooting SA guns, just like they are in every other division where SA guns are allowed. (duh)

 

As is your opinion.  

[RJH]

I think this thread is proving that limited optics was a necessary division after all, even though people like to think it's not. Here are some reasons:

 

1 whether at an advantage or not, overtime 2011 would end up dominating carry optics and pushing out other guns. So we can't allow 2011s in carryops

 

2 current USPSA shooters really prefer shooting 2011s and there are new shooters that have brand new 2011s that fit nicely into limited optics

 

3 there are a plethora of companies, both huge,medium, and custom that build optics ready 2011s and other Sao guns that do not fit into any division currently without being at a huge scoring disadvantage. So basically a giant untapped market

 

4 because of the scoring disadvantage, even though they fit into open they really don't. Just like any other division besides PCC fits into open, they really don't either

 

So you end up with limited optics, which is kind of like a few other divisions but is also completely its own thing, and maybe the perfect division for this point in time

[Boomstick303]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

So you end up with limited optics, which is kind of like a few other divisions but is also completely its own thing, and maybe the perfect division for this point in time

 

I think the data points LO will provide are important for future changes to divisions and Power Factor for that matter.  

 

I do not know anything for certain.  I have opinions.  It is my opinion that certain calibers and interest in Major PF divisions is dying.  There is a lot of untapped interest in the 2011 platform that really does not have a home in a Minor only division.  Those are opinions, only time will tell if that is true or not.  

 

LO is an excellent division to answer a lot of these questions.  If LO as currently constructed and CO become to two largest divisions, this answers a lot of questions.  If 2011 do not dominate LO, then wouldn't that indicate that SA guns would not dominate CO?  If they do then we can say with certainty that is what would happen in CO if did allow SA guns in there. 

  

[Racinready300ex]

I for sure think LO as a provisional division was needed and it'll be interesting to watch over the next year or two to see what happens with it. I'll be paying attention to activity, what guns people shoot and how they're finishing.

 

I do think allow SAO into CO the division will gravitate that way over time. Doesn't really matter if it improves your performance or not. People like nice things and $5k guns must be nice or they wouldn't cost that much. The longer someone plays this game the easier it will be for them to justify spending bank on a nice 2011. This happens with basically all the hobbies guys get into. 

 

I've always been a little worried about the perception that you'll need a 2011 to be competitive. Personally I'd like to see CO rolled back a little to create some separation in the divisions. Another option might be kill CO and increase the capacity of production to 15 or 140's. This would give people who feel out gunned shooting against a 2011 a less expensive place to play with a hi-cap 9mm which is what I think many people want.

[Boomstick303]

9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I for sure think LO as a provisional division was needed and it'll be interesting to watch over the next year or two to see what happens with it. I'll be paying attention to activity, what guns people shoot and how they're finishing.

 

It already has been interesting seeing what people are doing. People running 2011, vs slapping magwells on their CZs, people upgrading a Prodigy,  people building LO specific guns from different platforms etc.  It has been a mix of guns so far.  If I had to say which gun was predominant in LO it would be CZs.  At least in our section that seems to be the gun of choice.  

 

 

[mreed911]

45 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

People running 2011, ...people upgrading a Prodigy

 

The Prodigy is a 2011. 

[Stafford]

Tried running my Shadow 2 LO style cocked and locked yesterday. With the small, but easy to engage safety, I was forced to draw the gun with an awkward thumb high grip in order to depress the safety, then adjust my grip to normal for my first single action shot. For me, it is simpler and faster to just run it hammer down with a DA start. 

 

I think a larger, extended safety is the first item that needs to be added to a Shadow 2 for LO.