Warranty Work Patience level

[Maxwell914]

I purchased one of the high dollars open guns from a in my mind reputable brand. I shoot 3 Gun primarily so it’s a 9 minor slide ride 2011 style pistol. I’ve been having a ton of issues with the gun out the box failure to eject failures to feed etc. I have about 2000 rounds down the gun at this point so it’s past the break in period. I decided to reach out to the company being that they advertise their guns as rock solid. They promptly had me send me gun back to them for them to take a look. It has since been 3 weeks since they have had the gun and I haven’t heard a thing. Getting a bit frustrated after spending a couple grand on a pistol that hasn’t performed and feel that the service has been lack luster. Am I over reacting about a 3 week service time frame? I understand people wait years for pistols but figured service is something different and should more accurately reflect a companies level of customer service. Any recommendations on what to do? Otherwise if I decide to flip this pistol what would others recommend I look into open pistol wise? 

[Boomstick303]

Start asking for your money back.  That will get their attention.  If I spend thousands of dollars on a pistol it better run.  IF not give me my money back.   

 

Since we do not know who the manufacturer is I can only recommend my experience with Atlas.  My Athena eats everything I feed it.  It does not care about bullet profile, PF, and the weird part is when I switch ammo in my Sig X5s I almost always get a shift in POI (point of impact).  The Athena puts every type of ammo in the same hole.  

 

The crazy part about all of these high end gun builders is that all seem to put out a turd every once in awhile no matter how good they seem to be.  Super unfortunate but it happens. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Boomstick303

[dapribek]

If you decide to dump the gun and go to open, I highly recommend you getting a Bedell Custom pistol. Dan will work with you so you get exactly what you want and the final product will be a work of art that runs all day long! You will not be disappointed!

[Sinister4]

When I ran my shop and had a comeback id at the very least check it the same day it arrived, if a mistake was made it got repaired asap and shipped back. If it took longer id as call the customer and explain.

[Balakay]

2 hours ago, Maxwell914 said:

I purchased one of the high dollars open guns from a in my mind reputable brand....... after spending a couple grand on a pistol 

 

 

Unfortunately, if by a couple you mean "2", you don't have a high dollar open gun. 

I have had crappy service with truly expensive blasters, too.  Eventually, it gets to the point where you to find someone local, fix it yourself or be prepared to wait for a long time

[Maxwell914]

Just shy of $6k

[Furrly]

did they give you a turn time on the service?? I would definitely contact them!!

[CHA-LEE]

Did you ship them the gun and YOUR ammo + Mags for testing? 99% of the time feeding issues on new guns are due to Ammo or Magazine issues. I have lost count of how many times Gunsmiths have been drug through the mud for supposedly "Malfunctioning Guns" when the root cause was ultimately found to be Customer induced Ammo or Magazine issues.

 

Read the following BE Thread I started on how to assess feeding quality..... Before you hang the Gunsmith out to dry, make sure that you setup the ammo and mags properly first. 2011's are not like Glocks when it comes to feeding reliability. Special care and tuning is REQUIRED to ensure it will feed properly.

 

 

[Maxwell914]

52 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Did you ship them the gun and YOUR ammo + Mags for testing? 99% of the time feeding issues on new guns are due to Ammo or Magazine issues. I have lost count of how many times Gunsmiths have been drug through the mud for supposedly "Malfunctioning Guns" when the root cause was ultimately found to be Customer induced Ammo or Magazine issues.

 

Read the following BE Thread I started on how to assess feeding quality..... Before you hang the Gunsmith out to dry, make sure that you setup the ammo and mags properly first. 2011's are not like Glocks when it comes to feeding reliability. Special care and tuning is REQUIRED to ensure it will feed properly.

 

 

I concur with your thought process. With the being said they are their mags that they tuned. I did send all of them out with them. As far as ammo goes I have used their recommended cartridge configuration (124gr Berrys RN 4.1gr N320 1.15 OAL) and hand loaded them with the same problems. I since have tried numerous other factory ammo to no avail. At the end of the day if it can’t shoot factory ammo with out malfunctions every 30 rounds it ain’t worth it to me. I had a STI Edge that wasn’t nearly as finicky as this is. I don’t fee for a gun that I’ve owned for 5 months should have this many problems particularly when they advertise the ability to shoot factory ammo

[CHA-LEE]

Maxwell914> Using the builders recommended Mags and Cartridge Configuration is a good start. But you still need to assess the feeding angle and consistency by observing how the tip of the bullet hits the barrel feed ramp. That will give you factual evidence of how the feeding process is working and what needs to be done to optimize it. That whole process is defined in the thread I referenced.

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Maxwell914> Using the builders recommended Mags and Cartridge Configuration is a good start. But you still need to assess the feeding angle and consistency by observing how the tip of the bullet hits the barrel feed ramp. That will give you factual evidence of how the feeding process is working and what needs to be done to optimize it. That whole process is defined in the thread I referenced.

 

The question I have to ask then, is should the end user have to do this out of the gate on a $6,000 pistol? And that's a $6,000 pistol that had the mags tuned with it and is supposed to use factory ammo. I like high-end guns too, but if a Glock, Rock Island, or Smith & Wesson, etc. can all get their guns to run on factory ammo for 600 bucks I might be a little perturbed if my $6,000 one didn't run right out of the gate as was promised.

 

 

 

To the op: I think if you haven't heard anything for 3 weeks, you might give them a call. They could be finished with it and sending it back already. Now if you've tried calling a few times for 3 weeks and they haven't returned your call, that's a whole nother story. Good luck

[CHA-LEE]

Here is the reality that all 2011 owners should know. That platform was designed on the OAL of a .45 Caliber cartridge (1.275") which is much longer than most off the shelf factory 9mm ammo. The SAAMI Spec OAL range for 9mm ammo is 1.000" - 1.169". 2011's can and will be more finicky with feeding short OAL ammo.

 

Plastic Fantastic (Glock, S&W, SIG, CZ, Walther, etc) pistols that are BUILD SPECIFICALLY FOR the 9mm OAL ammo will obviously feed more reliably with SAAMI Spec 9mm ammo. 2011 platform pistols need special attention in mag and ammo tuning to ensure that it will feed reliably. There is no getting around that fact. No, its not like Lego pieces that just snap together and you can't screw it up. With proper Mag and Ammo tuning you CAN make a 2011 just as reliable as a Plastic Fantastic gun. That obviously takes testing and tuning effort which the user is tasked with figuring out. 

 

If a 2011 owner can't perform the fundamental mag & ammo tuning REQUIRED to ensure that it feeds reliably, then its probably not the correct platform to be using as that is just the tip of the iceberg. Its a bitter pill to swallow, but some people are just not skilled enough or willing to put in the effort to figure this stuff out. Switch to another platform that is fairly monkey proof and likely much cheaper as well. 

[twodownzero]

46 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Here is the reality that all 2011 owners should know. That platform was designed on the OAL of a .45 Caliber cartridge (1.275") which is much longer than most off the shelf factory 9mm ammo. The SAAMI Spec OAL range for 9mm ammo is 1.000" - 1.169". 2011's can and will be more finicky with feeding short OAL ammo.

 

Plastic Fantastic (Glock, S&W, SIG, CZ, Walther, etc) pistols that are BUILD SPECIFICALLY FOR the 9mm OAL ammo will obviously feed more reliably with SAAMI Spec 9mm ammo. 2011 platform pistols need special attention in mag and ammo tuning to ensure that it will feed reliably. There is no getting around that fact. No, its not like Lego pieces that just snap together and you can't screw it up. With proper Mag and Ammo tuning you CAN make a 2011 just as reliable as a Plastic Fantastic gun. That obviously takes testing and tuning effort which the user is tasked with figuring out. 

 

If a 2011 owner can't perform the fundamental mag & ammo tuning REQUIRED to ensure that it feeds reliably, then its probably not the correct platform to be using as that is just the tip of the iceberg. Its a bitter pill to swallow, but some people are just not skilled enough or willing to put in the effort to figure this stuff out. Switch to another platform that is fairly monkey proof and likely much cheaper as well. 

 

Not just the 2011, either.  All 1911 platforms are made for at least 1.260" cartridges.  My 9mm 1911 likes 1.150" just fine but longer is definitely better. 

 

That said, my CZ even after reaming the barrel won't take fat bullets at full SAAMI COAL, so it isn't just 1911s--many guns like what they like.

[Maxwell914]

11 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Here is the reality that all 2011 owners should know. That platform was designed on the OAL of a .45 Caliber cartridge (1.275") which is much longer than most off the shelf factory 9mm ammo. The SAAMI Spec OAL range for 9mm ammo is 1.000" - 1.169". 2011's can and will be more finicky with feeding short OAL ammo.

 

Plastic Fantastic (Glock, S&W, SIG, CZ, Walther, etc) pistols that are BUILD SPECIFICALLY FOR the 9mm OAL ammo will obviously feed more reliably with SAAMI Spec 9mm ammo. 2011 platform pistols need special attention in mag and ammo tuning to ensure that it will feed reliably. There is no getting around that fact. No, its not like Lego pieces that just snap together and you can't screw it up. With proper Mag and Ammo tuning you CAN make a 2011 just as reliable as a Plastic Fantastic gun. That obviously takes testing and tuning effort which the user is tasked with figuring out. 

 

If a 2011 owner can't perform the fundamental mag & ammo tuning REQUIRED to ensure that it feeds reliably, then its probably not the correct platform to be using as that is just the tip of the iceberg. Its a bitter pill to swallow, but some people are just not skilled enough or willing to put in the effort to figure this stuff out. Switch to another platform that is fairly monkey proof and likely much cheaper as well. 

I know you are right I just don’t like it. Lol guess it’s hard to swallow the truth for the money spent. I am just not a fan of companies being able to use this as an excuse when their guns don’t run especially when you follow all of their guidance. Additionally I like to believe that there has been some advancement in engineer and technology when it comes to building 9mm 1911 style pistols. If we were talking early generation Para pistols yes I get that there is a lot of tuning to be done. I just don’t feel in this day and age with modern machine and a wealth of knowledge out there plus a company advertising functionality, reliability (particularly in their mags) etc that it needs to be tuned is an acceptable response. I’ll await a response on my repair and if they can’t do anything you’ll see it posted on the classifieds shortly after and I’ll stick with a plastic fantastic that my simple brain can understand. 

[davsco]

14 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

But you still need to 

yeah F_ck all that.  Whether it's $2k or $6k, if one is using the builder's mags and ammo specs or factory ammo, the customer shouldn't have to waste time and ammo/money to diagnose or fix the problem.

[shred]

If it's a custom build, then contact them on the regular to see what's going on (if only where you are on the wait-list), but IME 3 weeks is not that long in this industry. 

 

Most custom shops are small and there may be guns to be fixed ahead of yours as well as making enough money to keep the doors open.  Heck, Leupold & SIG can take weeks to flip a broken dot, let alone a complete gun with occasional jams (btw, check your crimp and ask the maker what it should be... I see under-crimping issues all the time).

 

The other thing to never do is tell a gunsmith "no rush"...

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

4 hours ago, Maxwell914 said:

Additionally I like to believe that there has been some advancement in engineer and technology when it comes to building 9mm 1911 style pistols. If we were talking early generation Para pistols yes I get that there is a lot of tuning to be done.

That would be nice, but its just not generally true, I can pull the parts out of a brand new 2011 and fit them to a 1911 built100years ago if I wanted, they are all made to fit the same specifications.

The biggest change in the last 120 years is probably ramped barrels, and those are not new. 

 

 

[Gene_WI]

17 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Here is the reality that all 2011 owners should know. That platform was designed on the OAL of a .45 Caliber cartridge (1.275") which is much longer than most off the shelf factory 9mm ammo. The SAAMI Spec OAL range for 9mm ammo is 1.000" - 1.169". 2011's can and will be more finicky with feeding short OAL ammo.

 

Plastic Fantastic (Glock, S&W, SIG, CZ, Walther, etc) pistols that are BUILD SPECIFICALLY FOR the 9mm OAL ammo will obviously feed more reliably with SAAMI Spec 9mm ammo. 2011 platform pistols need special attention in mag and ammo tuning to ensure that it will feed reliably. There is no getting around that fact. No, its not like Lego pieces that just snap together and you can't screw it up. With proper Mag and Ammo tuning you CAN make a 2011 just as reliable as a Plastic Fantastic gun. That obviously takes testing and tuning effort which the user is tasked with figuring out. 

 

If a 2011 owner can't perform the fundamental mag & ammo tuning REQUIRED to ensure that it feeds reliably, then its probably not the correct platform to be using as that is just the tip of the iceberg. Its a bitter pill to swallow, but some people are just not skilled enough or willing to put in the effort to figure this stuff out. Switch to another platform that is fairly monkey proof and likely much cheaper as well. 

 

With much respect for you.

 

I don't think the above should be true at all. The feed angle and cartridge length specs needed to run 9mm should all be constant and know for the 1911/2011 platform. If parts are in spec things should work right out of the box. Having to individually tune parts for a specific gun would indicate out of spec parts are present?

 

I have run .40 MBX mags in 4 different 2011's from 3 different builders and they have never had a feed issue with either long or factory length ammo. Why would 9mm be different, especially if loaded to the builder specified length.

[Nolan]

7 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

 I can pull the parts out of a brand new 2011 and fit them to a 1911 built100years ago if I wanted, they are all made to fit the same specifications.

 

 

 

LOL!  I hope that's sarcasm, because if it's not.......

 

good luck with that!

 

 

Nolan

[notanoperator9]

My Gans guns run and run. Steel cased, brass cased, coated bullets, fmj, 115, 124 and 147gr. Both of those were 3-3500 each fully built with dlc. 

[MikeBurgess]

15 hours ago, Nolan said:

 

LOL!  I hope that's sarcasm, because if it's not.......

 

good luck with that!

 

 

Nolan

Not sarcasm, I did say fit not drop in and its likely bad idea if you don't want the 1911 elitist club showing up with pitchforks and torches for ruining a collectors item. 

The point was, the only real functional update I can think of is ramped barrels, everything else I can think of is just parts that are better made, better fit and better ergonomics. 

 

Is there something I missed that is an actual change in parts needed fit old frames? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

On 5/10/2022 at 6:48 AM, Maxwell914 said:

I purchased one of the high dollars open guns from a in my mind reputable brand. I shoot 3 Gun primarily so it’s a 9 minor slide ride 2011 style pistol. I’ve been having a ton of issues with the gun out the box failure to eject failures to feed etc.

i'm curious what could be causing your problem. failures to feed seem fairly common in 9/40 2011's. in our case (2 gun with the same issue) it was partly the feed ramp that wasn't cut all the way down, partly the fairly short (1.15) ammo we started with, and partly the magazine internal shape, and mostly the weak mag springs. Now they are extremely reliable, with 1.200 length ammo, and stronger springs, and a reprofiled feed ramp.

 

failures to eject, otoh, seem fairly unusual, but I've seen some in cold weather with thick lube on tightly fit guns.

[sc68cal]

On 5/11/2022 at 9:13 PM, notanoperator9 said:

My Gans guns run and run. Steel cased, brass cased, coated bullets, fmj, 115, 124 and 147gr. Both of those were 3-3500 each fully built with dlc. 

Gans does great work, but he's also not cranking out guns like these other manufacturers do. He only builds as many as he has time for. He's a bit of a special case.

[Npoulson]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:14 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Here is the reality that all 2011 owners should know. That platform was designed on the OAL of a .45 Caliber cartridge (1.275") which is much longer than most off the shelf factory 9mm ammo. The SAAMI Spec OAL range for 9mm ammo is 1.000" - 1.169". 2011's can and will be more finicky with feeding short OAL ammo.

 

Plastic Fantastic (Glock, S&W, SIG, CZ, Walther, etc) pistols that are BUILD SPECIFICALLY FOR the 9mm OAL ammo will obviously feed more reliably with SAAMI Spec 9mm ammo. 2011 platform pistols need special attention in mag and ammo tuning to ensure that it will feed reliably. There is no getting around that fact. No, its not like Lego pieces that just snap together and you can't screw it up. With proper Mag and Ammo tuning you CAN make a 2011 just as reliable as a Plastic Fantastic gun. That obviously takes testing and tuning effort which the user is tasked with figuring out. 

 

If a 2011 owner can't perform the fundamental mag & ammo tuning REQUIRED to ensure that it feeds reliably, then its probably not the correct platform to be using as that is just the tip of the iceberg. Its a bitter pill to swallow, but some people are just not skilled enough or willing to put in the effort to figure this stuff out. Switch to another platform that is fairly monkey proof and likely much cheaper as well. 

I was going to say this then saw this

ammo has to be long first 1.16 is short as id ever go and I normally try to run 1.175 9mm and 1.185-1.2 40

these days 1.185 to save a tad

i have zero feed issues 

i recently had an all steel match and i really didnt want to switch presses over so I bought some factory recommended for uspsa shooting knowing even then it was iffy

that thing jammed like crazy every other round

changed press loaded 1.175 not one issue

[donnyglock]

14 hours ago, Npoulson said:

I was going to say this then saw this

ammo has to be long first 1.16 is short as id ever go and I normally try to run 1.175 9mm and 1.185-1.2 40

these days 1.185 to save a tad

i have zero feed issues 

i recently had an all steel match and i really didnt want to switch presses over so I bought some factory recommended for uspsa shooting knowing even then it was iffy

that thing jammed like crazy every other round

changed press loaded 1.175 not one issue

Than your builder doesn’t know how to build a 9mm. If any builder can’t get a 9mm to feed short factory ammo he needs to find another profession. I test all the 9mm I build with reloads and factory. Then again I cut all my own feed ramps…etc. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by donnyglock