First Ka-boom shooting 9mm major

[36873687]

26 minutes ago, pealandco said:

@regor@HesedTech@Farmer@Jim Watson@M1A4ME@RePete@NoSteel@AverageJoeShooting@zzt@Rnlinebacker@Guy Neill@38super@TONY BARONE@BoyGlock

 

As far bullet setback goes, I've tested setback quite a bit by chambering dummy rounds and I haven't had any noticeable setback. 9.6gr of AA7 fills up 97% of the case to where the bullet gets seated, so there would be very little room for the bullet to move back further into the case. I also think that AA7 doesn't compress well, but others can correct me there. I'm using a Dillon sizing die that creates a very nice coke bottle shape.

 

I should also mention to everyone that this practice session was to mainly isolate a stovepipe issue that I've been having since I switched to AA7 from N350 and Silhouette. I wanted to try the factory BUL mags vs the MBX 140mm mag that I've been using in practice and experiencing the issue. I will say that AA7 has been VERY dirty for me with lots of cornmeal in the chamber, rails and other parts of the gun. At times it has made the slide sluggish even with a 9# spring. The goal of this practice session again was to isolate the problem being either mag related and then running the gun fairly dry since others on here have suggested that the AA7 cornmeal is because the gun is too wet.

 

Seriously considering dropping AA7 despite how nice it shoots and going to 3N38 (assuming I can find some). The 1st thousand rounds that I put through the gun were mostly with N350 and it was very clean with zero malfunctions. The feel wasn't very good since it doesn't run the comp well, but at least it was clean. I'm assuming 3N38 is equally clean. 

I like aa7 but been shooting silhouette love it not as dirty but it will cornmeal also

[d3ydx3]

1 minute ago, 36873687 said:

I like aa7 but been shooting silhouette love it not as dirty but it will cornmeal also

 

Yep! The cornmeal was nowhere near as bad. Maybe I'll give it a try instead of going back to N350, which is a bit high pressure for my taste until I get some 3N38 to try out. I would say the cornmeal with AA7 is at least 2x to 3x worse.

Edited May 6, 2021 by pealandco

[zzt]

1 hour ago, pealandco said:

I also think that AA7 doesn't compress well, but others can correct me there.

 

AA7 and SWMP powders compress very well.  I normally load 10.2gr @ 1.161".  A friend asked me to test compressibility, because he had to load shorter.  I loaded three rounds to 1.126" and didn't crimp them.  None of them grew like 3N38 loads do.  Three months later they were still at 1.126".

 

BTW, 3N38 is quite clean.  So is the Shooters World Major Pistol Powder I use (AA7 formula made overseas).  I can't account for the mess you describe.  After a 250 round match I just have to wipe everything down with a solvent rag.  Nothing sticks and no cornmeal. 

 

IMO you would be better off going back to N350 rather than Silhouette.  It is faster than Silhouette and doesn't work the comp well at all.  3N38 may work well for you shooting 124s loaded long.  I shoot 115 JHPs and I cannot fit enough in the case to make major and still seat the bullet.  So I'm using mine up loading Open minor for SCSA.

Edited May 6, 2021 by zzt

[d3ydx3]

6 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

AA7 and SWMP powders compress very well.  I normally load 10.2gr @ 1.161".  A friend asked me to test compressibility, because he had to load shorter.  I loaded three rounds to 1.126" and didn't crimp them.  None of them grew like 3N38 loads do.  Three months later they were still at 1.126".

 

BTW, 3N38 is quite clean.  So is the Shooters World Major Pistol Powder I use (AA7 formula made overseas).  I can't account for the mess you describe.  After a 250 round match I just have to wipe everything down with a solvent rag.  Nothing sticks and no cornmeal. 

 

Yeah, I don't know what the deal with my lot of AA7 is. It kills me that it shoots great, but leaves the cornmeal like it does. Really, really wanted to make it work. I've heard different lots are cleaner than other lots, maybe I just have a bad lot, but it has caused nothing for problems with my gun since I started shooting it and this last session was very dry (not going to say completely dry on oil).

 

I had no idea AA7 compressed that well. Maybe I did have bullet setback then. I do use the Dillon sizer, and I've heard mixed things. Some people say it sizes great, some people say it doesn't as far as case tension goes. I've been using it for a year and haven't had any issues to date. Regardless, I've gotten my hands on the Redding sizer, so I may end up switching to it. I use the Redding for 40 cal and it is super smooth, so hoping it is equally smooth for 9mm. Lots of variables. 

 

I am not looking forward to my rounds growing with 3N38... that's why I didn't go with 3N38 originally.

Edited May 6, 2021 by pealandco

[d3ydx3]

@zzt Here's some pics that I just took. It has been disassembled a few times, so some of the cornmeal has come out of it, but I think this will give you a good idea as far as the amount of fouling that I'm getting w/ AA7.

[zzt]

4 minutes ago, pealandco said:

Yeah, I don't know what the deal with my lot of AA7 is.

 

Try Weapon Shield CLP as your lube and their solvent as your cleaner.  When I was shooting Open 40 using Silhouette I  got lots of cornmeal.  I had to run the gun wet because in the Winter I could only go two stages before I would have to relube.  I looked at the tests for Weapon Shield and decided to try some, So I bought the kit.  The solvent cleans very well and prepares the metal for the lube.  Presto, almost no cornmeal and the gun would run through an entire match even at 30 degrees.

 

I use it now for 9 major in both Open guns and it works like a charm.  The CLP somehow sticks to the surfaces and makes cleaning easier.

 

A bullseye shooting buddy was moaning about how long it took him to clean the lead out of his barrel after every match.  I suggested he try Weapon Shield.  I saw him two weeks later and he said it completely cured the problem.

[BoyGlock]

Most if not all comments posts here justifies my fear of 9major. No matter its advantages the risks in safe use is too high. Im not starting a 9/38 war, ive already read a lot of them in this forum. And most are subjective for my taste. This KB issue in 9 maj I believe is not isolated nor rare. The signs of over pressure in the brass after repeated reloads are so obvious that I could not just ignore until safety is compromised. I dont see such signs in .40 .45 .38super even in old overused brass.  

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, BoyGlock said:

Most if not all comments posts here justifies my fear of 9major. No matter its advantages the risks in safe use is too high. Im not starting a 9/38 war, ive already read a lot of them in this forum. And most are subjective for my taste. This KB issue in 9 maj I believe is not isolated nor rare. The signs of over pressure in the brass after repeated reloads are so obvious that I could not just ignore until safety is compromised. I dont see such signs in .40 .45 .38super even in old overused brass.  

I think it’s pretty rare. Just think of how many 9MAJOR rounds are fired every weekend across USPSA. If it were even remotely a common occurrence nobody would use it.

 

[d3ydx3]

1 hour ago, BoyGlock said:

Most if not all comments posts here justifies my fear of 9major. No matter its advantages the risks in safe use is too high. Im not starting a 9/38 war, ive already read a lot of them in this forum. And most are subjective for my taste. This KB issue in 9 maj I believe is not isolated nor rare. The signs of over pressure in the brass after repeated reloads are so obvious that I could not just ignore until safety is compromised. I dont see such signs in .40 .45 .38super even in old overused brass.  

 

Despite my KB I still plan to shoot 9 Major in open. I did fire 100 rounds after the KB happened to verify function of the gun without any issues. I think at this point it was a combination of issues. Possible weak brass. Possible OOB caused by debris in the gun. 

 

Will I be a bit more careful with my brass selection and inspect cases more? Yes. Not sure if I'll go as far as to buy once fired roll sized brass, but we'll see. 

 

Will I stop recycling my major cases 4 or more times? Probably.

 

Will I likely switch powders in the short term to something cleaner to minimize debris? Yes

 

KBs happen in minor guns for the same reasons. Not much we can do except accept the risk with our sport. Now if I have a 2nd or 3rd KB in the near future, we'll see...

[38super]

Test for OOB hammer fall.  Cock hammer, pull slide OOB 1/4". Allow slide to move slowly toward battery while tickling the trigger, if hammer falls before battery the problem is  the disconnector nose is worn.  Ignition is fast enough to prevent the slide from going to battery and start extracting the case.  

 

Brass fatigue will show a slightly shiny ring around the case internal web, usually mid way down.  Annealing won't help.

 

Accepting the risk is complacency, don't.   Please, be careful.

 

Powder measure, measure 10 - 20 powder drops to get an average.  Most powder measures will vary 1-2 tenths of a grain.

 

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello, check your firing pin hole for pieces of brass. Also check your firing pin to make sure it is not bent. I have seen quite a few Win brass here that has blown out on the side just like yours. Well used brass was probibly the problem. I have been using HS-6 for over 12 years for 9mm major rounds and have well over 100,000 rounds of it through various 2011's so I don't think it is a powder problem. I have seen a couple of Bul pistols here with problems of various kinds but firing out of battery was not one of them. Thanks, Eric

[36873687]

7 hours ago, pealandco said:

 

Yep! The cornmeal was nowhere near as bad. Maybe I'll give it a try instead of going back to N350, which is a bit high pressure for my taste until I get some 3N38 to try out. I would say the cornmeal with AA7 is at least 2x to 3x worse.

The corn meal goes away with aa7 with more powder loading 115 grain

[dansedgli]

Win brass is weak stuff. Compared to other cases it is more likely to blow out with high pressures. I would just avoid using it if you can.

 

I've had one blow out the same in 9 major so far. It was a WIN case. 

 

If you search for kabooms on here you will see lots of WIN brass. 

 

A guy at my club has had 3 blow outs in the last 2 weeks shooting 9 minor in a STI Omni. The guy that loads for him has switched to a slightly faster powder because powder is hard to get. They were all WIN cases. His other cases were fine. He shoots mixed range brass. 

 

I used to have the same issues in 357 sig with WIN brass in my Infinity. I shot Federal and WIN brass. It would blow out the side like in your photo. It happened 5 or 6 times before i got the picture and got rid of it all. The steel grip had a star shaped cutout like the texas ranger guns you see and I'd be left with a black star shaped imprint on my palms.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AverageJoeShooting]

15 hours ago, pealandco said:

@regor@HesedTech@Farmer@Jim Watson@M1A4ME@RePete@NoSteel@AverageJoeShooting@zzt@Rnlinebacker@Guy Neill@38super@TONY BARONE@BoyGlock

 

As far bullet setback goes, I've tested setback quite a bit by chambering dummy rounds and I haven't had any noticeable setback. 9.6gr of AA7 fills up 97% of the case to where the bullet gets seated, so there would be very little room for the bullet to move back further into the case. I also think that AA7 doesn't compress well, but others can correct me there. I'm using a Dillon sizing die that creates a very nice coke bottle shape.

 

I should also mention to everyone that this practice session was to mainly isolate a stovepipe issue that I've been having since I switched to AA7 from N350 and Silhouette. I wanted to try the factory BUL mags vs the MBX 140mm mag that I've been using in practice and experiencing the issue. I will say that AA7 has been VERY dirty for me with lots of cornmeal in the chamber, rails and other parts of the gun. At times it has made the slide sluggish even with a 9# spring. The goal of this practice session again was to isolate the problem being either mag related and then running the gun fairly dry since others on here have suggested that the AA7 cornmeal is because the gun is too wet.

 

Seriously considering dropping AA7 despite how nice it shoots and going to 3N38 (assuming I can find some). The 1st thousand rounds that I put through the gun were mostly with N350 and it was very clean with zero malfunctions. The feel wasn't very good since it doesn't run the comp well, but at least it was clean. I'm assuming 3N38 is equally clean. 

i used 3n38 at first and its super blasty, tons of dot movement. 

i switched to AA7 and its been amazing, i never experienced this super dirtyness everyone talks about. its just as clean as any of the other powders ive used

 

[AverageJoeShooting]

12 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

Most if not all comments posts here justifies my fear of 9major. No matter its advantages the risks in safe use is too high. Im not starting a 9/38 war, ive already read a lot of them in this forum. And most are subjective for my taste. This KB issue in 9 maj I believe is not isolated nor rare. The signs of over pressure in the brass after repeated reloads are so obvious that I could not just ignore until safety is compromised. I dont see such signs in .40 .45 .38super even in old overused brass.  

if you are a well known gunsmith who makes guns on this forum....i have one of your guns in 38sc and its gods gift to mankind. the only reason im shooting 9 major right now is because cpr for 38s brass is like.20 whereas cpr for 9 major is like 5 cpr. doesnt sound like a ton until you put it over 50k or so rounds

 

and if im thinking of a different member point still stands. I love 38sc and i always felt like it shot softer compared to 9 major, but the price difference is crazy

[AverageJoeShooting]

11 hours ago, pealandco said:

 

Despite my KB I still plan to shoot 9 Major in open. I did fire 100 rounds after the KB happened to verify function of the gun without any issues. I think at this point it was a combination of issues. Possible weak brass. Possible OOB caused by debris in the gun. 

 

Will I be a bit more careful with my brass selection and inspect cases more? Yes. Not sure if I'll go as far as to buy once fired roll sized brass, but we'll see. 

 

Will I stop recycling my major cases 4 or more times? Probably.

 

Will I likely switch powders in the short term to something cleaner to minimize debris? Yes

 

KBs happen in minor guns for the same reasons. Not much we can do except accept the risk with our sport. Now if I have a 2nd or 3rd KB in the near future, we'll see...

just buy like 30-50k brass upfront, enough for an entire season, then just shoot it and dont pick it up....ive been doing that method for years and its always been good to me

[AverageJoeShooting]

11 hours ago, pealandco said:

 

Despite my KB I still plan to shoot 9 Major in open. I did fire 100 rounds after the KB happened to verify function of the gun without any issues. I think at this point it was a combination of issues. Possible weak brass. Possible OOB caused by debris in the gun. 

 

Will I be a bit more careful with my brass selection and inspect cases more? Yes. Not sure if I'll go as far as to buy once fired roll sized brass, but we'll see. 

 

Will I stop recycling my major cases 4 or more times? Probably.

 

Will I likely switch powders in the short term to something cleaner to minimize debris? Yes

 

KBs happen in minor guns for the same reasons. Not much we can do except accept the risk with our sport. Now if I have a 2nd or 3rd KB in the near future, we'll see...

one other thing you can do, is fire a round at a white target from two inches away. look at the blast pattern. you want a nice clean hole with a nice even burn ring around it.  too much powder with leave a big sloppy ring and also a good way to have tons of unburnt powder in the slide (cornmeal)

[CocoBolo]

When I use AA#7  124gr JHP my load is 10gr, but the OAL is out there @1.170-1.175.  Shot thousands with no issues.  Since 2008 I've adopted the once and done rule for 9 maj brass.  I buy once fired at a local range or pickup at a steel match.  Maybe you can get away with loading them up to 3 times, but I find a decade or more of once and done working for me, good enough reason to continue.

 

My preferred load is 7.3gr of Silhouette, at 100f it is 172pf, at 40 it is 189pf, so adjust in cold weather.

Edited May 7, 2021 by CocoBolo

[d3ydx3]

@regor@HesedTech@Farmer@Jim Watson@M1A4ME@RePete@NoSteel@AverageJoeShooting@zzt@Rnlinebacker@Guy Neill@38super@TONY BARONE@BoyGlock@dansedgli@CocoBolo@36873687@Sarge@Aircooled6racer

 

Turns out that I may have some bullet setback issues. I got my Redding titanium sizing die in today and decided to load up a few dummy rounds for plunk & set back testing. Used a combination of FC, Blazer, and GFL headstamp brass. The FC and GFL did OK on setback testing, but the Blazer cases flunked - around 0.010" setback after a couple of chamberings. I then took the Blazer cases and pressed them against my workbench and I was able to get the bullets into the case completely, so not good.

 

Took out the Redding sizing die and went back to the Dillon sizing die. Same issue with the Dillon die, the Blazer cases flunked and I was able to push the bullet in completely. 

 

Took out the trusty U-die that I haven't used in awhile and grabbed a couple of more Blazer cases. Zero to a very tiny amount of setback - 0.002-0.004" after multiple attempts to the get the bullets setback deep. 

 

I did try testing with a couple of Winchester cases on the Dillon sizing die to replicate the same setup I would've had for the KB. I wasn't able to get any noticeable setback, but at this point I can't rule out setback being the issue or a contributing factor. 

 

This was all done with the same Winchester FMJ 124gr .355 bullets that I used when I had the KB. I've noticed a lot of consistency issues with the bullets. The length varies from .588ish up to .599ish. I'm also seeing they may be slightly undersized to .354 or .3545 vs a real .355. I was wondering why Wideners was selling 3500 count boxes of these for cheap when the pandemic started. 

 

I say all that because the new Everglades 124gr JHPs that are .355 seem to setback a lot less even with the Redding and Dillon dies.

Edited May 7, 2021 by pealandco

[noylj]

If a couple tenths of a grain can blow up your gun, then that load is a ticking time bomb.

Do you use a Lock-Out die to verify powder?

If something looks off with powder charge, why not check it?

Do you press down on every bullet after seating? Bullet may not have been held tightly and was pushed back into case during feed cycle. Do push test on every seated bullet.

Major is generally just a misstep from KB

[TONY BARONE]

The EGW U-die is what will prevent bullet set back with good brass and bullets.

Edited May 7, 2021 by TONY BARONE
Added content.

[Farmer]

6 hours ago, pealandco said:

@regor@HesedTech@Farmer@Jim Watson@M1A4ME@RePete@NoSteel@AverageJoeShooting@zzt@Rnlinebacker@Guy Neill@38super@TONY BARONE@BoyGlock@dansedgli@CocoBolo@36873687@Sarge@Aircooled6racer

 

Turns out that I may have some bullet setback issues. I got my Redding titanium sizing die in today and decided to load up a few dummy rounds for plunk & set back testing. Used a combination of FC, Blazer, and GFL headstamp brass. The FC and GFL did OK on setback testing, but the Blazer cases flunked - around 0.010" setback after a couple of chamberings. I then took the Blazer cases and pressed them against my workbench and I was able to get the bullets into the case completely, so not good.

 

Took out the Redding sizing die and went back to the Dillon sizing die. Same issue with the Dillon die, the Blazer cases flunked and I was able to push the bullet in completely. 

 

Took out the trusty U-die that I haven't used in awhile and grabbed a couple of more Blazer cases. Zero to a very tiny amount of setback - 0.002-0.004" after multiple attempts to the get the bullets setback deep. 

 

I did try testing with a couple of Winchester cases on the Dillon sizing die to replicate the same setup I would've had for the KB. I wasn't able to get any noticeable setback, but at this point I can't rule out setback being the issue or a contributing factor. 

 

This was all done with the same Winchester FMJ 124gr .355 bullets that I used when I had the KB. I've noticed a lot of consistency issues with the bullets. The length varies from .588ish up to .599ish. I'm also seeing they may be slightly undersized to .354 or .3545 vs a real .355. I was wondering why Wideners was selling 3500 count boxes of these for cheap when the pandemic started. 

 

I say all that because the new Everglades 124gr JHPs that are .355 seem to setback a lot less even with the Redding and Dillon dies.

Funny you say that. Years ago I bought some Winchester FMJ 230 & JHP 45’s from Midway really cheap. They were in sealed WW cases of 1850. The fmj’s shot pretty good but the JHP’s were all over in my 45 auto. They measured .450-.4505 where as the FMJ’s were just at .451.

I have a Redding sizer for my 454, it does a nice job not making the brass look like a coke bottle. It also doesn’t size as much as the RCBS and I would get bullets pulling in my revolver no matter how much crimp I used. So sort of similar problems with undersized bullets & light sizing even though different calibers. 

[jim vaughan]

From what I see it looks like the bottom of the brass case is not fully supported by the chamber.

The reason for this comment is that I had similar problems when using two new "fully supported" 38 super barrels which I then reconfigured for 9x23 loads.

Using loads that had been proven over many tens of thousands of rounds, some cases blew in the area which had the least chamber support.

A comparison to the earlier and later barrels showed that the ramp was machined too far forward. Jim

[zzt]

On 5/6/2021 at 5:05 PM, pealandco said:

@zzt Here's some pics that I just took. It has been disassembled a few times, so some of the cornmeal has come out of it, but I think this will give you a good idea as far as the amount of fouling that I'm getting w/ AA7.

 

Here is a pic of my backup Open gun slide.  I just finished building the gun and wanted to check it out to see if it needed tweaking before I start blending and polishing.    I ran it wet, because it was the first time.  So this is the debris I get from 50-60 rounds through for function testing and sighting in, plus 2 1/2 matches without cleaning or lube.  You can still see oil in the recesses for the upper lugs.  No cornmeal at all.  Same with the barrel and frame.  Just soot.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by zzt

[Farmer]

10 hours ago, zzt said:

  You can still see oil in the recesses for the upper lugs.  No cornmeal at all.  Same with the barrel and frame.  Just soot.

 

I think you’re lube just hides it better.  That’s not bad. I’ve got an older an newer jug of #7 and one is definitely worse than the other.