The progression of CO

[shred]

'No difference at the top of the heap,

 

Further down the heap?  Does it matter much?  The advantage to having Minor available is it gives a place for the people that fail Chrono to go and still shoot for score, even if not very competitively in those divisions.

 

When I started in the early 90s, everybody shot Major unless they brought some oddball pistol or failed at chrono, so the vast majority of 'minor' shooters in old results (asides the odd BHP shooter) are actually shooting pretty hot ammo.  That's the roots of the sport (185 PF!) and getting rid of it would be short-sighted as it takes away some of the cool things you can do shooting Major that don't work out for Minor. 

 

As for "easier" with one division or another, the shooting may be easier, but it's easy for everyone else there too, so the competition doesn't change much except to bias a little in favor of movement skills over shooting and manipulation skills.

 

Using that as a metric for equal-skilled shooters, and some recent co-division Nationals results.. Open (Major) is easiest, then PCC, then Limited (major), then CO, then Lim10 followed by Prod/SS and Revo way at the back.

[Overscore]

On 8/14/2020 at 2:35 PM, IVC said:

You lost me at "carry gun," but then "P" in USPSA does stand for "practical," I guess...

 

I'm pretty sure this is why it's called CARRY optics. 

[rowdyb]

So when will we get virtually unbreakable slide mounted optics that we'd use in competition for CO? What would your dream optic be like?

 

It sure wouldn't be the 2.5moa RMR I started with.

[zzt]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

What effect would it have on division if Limited and Open were mandated major pf? And major/minor still your choice in L10 and SS.

 

It would piss some people off.  Changing the rule like that will cost shooters and/or money.  I know several shooters who shoot Limited minor because the love their CS TS, but it is  in 9mm.  I know shooters who shoot Open minor for several reasons.  Why mess with stuff like that?  I do believe there are too many Divisions.  More like the grade school practice of everyone gets a trophy no matter what.  Unless you are intentionally trying to limit participation, open thing up, not close things down.

[rowdyb]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

It would piss some people off.  Changing the rule like that will cost shooters and/or money.  I know several shooters who shoot Limited minor because the love their CS TS, but it is  in 9mm.  I know shooters who shoot Open minor for several reasons.  Why mess with stuff like that?  I do believe there are too many Divisions.  More like the grade school practice of everyone gets a trophy no matter what.  Unless you are intentionally trying to limit participation, open thing up, not close things down.

It was off topic, and not what I would do. More just a thought exercise on how something changed in one division influences others.

 

I still think that the dot itself is really the only place left for innovation in the division. 

[JGus]

I think a positive consequence of CO division was that some of the red dot manufacturers realized they had to go back to the drawing board and create a more durable red dot.  CO division has created a very large and wide scale red dot testing scenario.

[shred]

More than half of all Limited shooters in 2019 were shooting Minor PF.  They can't all have failed chrono, so there clearly is lots of demand for a hicap-minor division.

 

In fact, if Limited Minor was a separate division in 2019, it would have had more shooters than PCC and Limited Major and been close to Open--- a few thousand back from CO and Prod.

 

That's a pretty big elephant in the room.  CO's big bump with the mag change shows it too.  People want hicap minor.

 

Pistol makers figured out several years ago that doing optic cuts let them double their models and come out with a 'new shiny' higher dollar option for little investment.  Optic makers followed with some new models and versions, although there are still too many different footprints.  I think they were wanting to lock in some market but that didn't really work with makers going to shim plates.

 

[Racinready300ex]

52 minutes ago, shred said:

More than half of all Limited shooters in 2019 were shooting Minor PF.  

 

 

Where does that number come from?

 

It is kind of surprising but not really. Locally I see a lot of Limited minor unclassified shooters. They'll likely never join the org. don't really care that much about how they finish either. I certainly wouldn't want to change anything to drive them away, but I also wouldn't try to cater to them either.

[shred]

 

11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Where does that number come from?

 

It is kind of surprising but not really. Locally I see a lot of Limited minor unclassified shooters. They'll likely never join the org. don't really care that much about how they finish either. I certainly wouldn't want to change anything to drive them away, but I also wouldn't try to cater to them either.

 

USPSA year-end presentation.  https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20200214_2 Mike Foley 2020 Presentation.pdf

You might need to be signed in to see it.  The stats I was looking at are around page 18 or so.

 

As I read it, even if every single non-member shot Lim Minor, that still leaves many thousand USPSA members shooting it.

 

 

 

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, shred said:

More than half of all Limited shooters in 2019 were shooting Minor PF.  They can't all have failed chrono, so there clearly is lots of demand for a hicap-minor division.

 

In fact, if Limited Minor was a separate division in 2019, it would have had more shooters than PCC and Limited Major and been close to Open--- a few thousand back from CO and Prod.

 

That's a pretty big elephant in the room.  CO's big bump with the mag change shows it too.  People want hicap minor.

 

 

 

That's insane. Locally it makes sense but I didn't realize our club mirrored national numbers so much. Most of our Limited shooters are either 3 gunners rocking their 3 gun gats and hosing away or new shooters that sign up for production until we tell them practically they want 3x 17 round mags instead of 3x 10 round mags. 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, shred said:

USPSA year end present

 

USPSA year-end presentation.  https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20200214_2 Mike Foley 2020 Presentation.pdf

You might need to be signed in to see it.

 

As I read it, even if every single non-member shot Lim Minor, that still leaves many thousand USPSA members shooting it.

 

 

I didn't know that information was out there.

 

I'm sure I'm bias, I like limited. I have a couple expensive limited guns. But I'd still rather see them make limited minor only then add a new limited minor division. I'd prefer one robust division over two mediocre divisions. We have enough of those already. Of course L-minor would probably steal shooters from CO and production. 

[shred]

44 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I didn't know that information was out there.

 

I'm sure I'm bias, I like limited. I have a couple expensive limited guns. But I'd still rather see them make limited minor only then add a new limited minor division. I'd prefer one robust division over two mediocre divisions. We have enough of those already. Of course L-minor would probably steal shooters from CO and production. 

 

Yeah, a split would make six roughly equal-size divisions-- PCC, CO, LimMaj, Open, LimMin & PD, plus 3 smaller ones, SS, L10 and Revo (SS is about half PCC, L10+Revo together is half of SS).  Feels like a lot of slices in the pie.   Probably PD would lose some shooters, but 2/3rds would have to go to get down to SS levels.  Plenty of people claim to love PD, reloads and all here, so maybe not.  Some division consolidation could be done but that's a different argument..

[Jeff226]

21 hours ago, shred said:

 

Yeah, a split would make six roughly equal-size divisions-- PCC, CO, LimMaj, Open, LimMin & PD, plus 3 smaller ones, SS, L10 and Revo (SS is about half PCC, L10+Revo together is half of SS).  Feels like a lot of slices in the pie.   Probably PD would lose some shooters, but 2/3rds would have to go to get down to SS levels.  Plenty of people claim to love PD, reloads and all here, so maybe not.  Some division consolidation could be done but that's a different argument..

That is only 9 divisions...computers can easily handle that.  If they actually wake up and respond to the demand to split out limited minor, then Production will quickly fall into the "smaller ones" category, Limited major won't be far behind, and CO will continue to lure away open shooters.  Let people have all of the division options at level 1.  Level 2 and above can limit participation to only the 5-6 most active divisions if prizes for all 9 are a problem.  If the market decides limited major is obsolete then so be it.  

 

I keep hoping some energetic person will just start a new organization that has their own limited minor optics, limited minor irons, and "all other" divisions.  That will be much easier and quicker than pampering those hanging on to DVC even though we all know it hasn't been relevant in limited or open for a long time.

[ima45dv8]

39 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I keep hoping some energetic person will just start a new organization

Please keep us posted on your progress.

[Intheshaw1]

39 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Isn't that essentially the USSL pistol rules? Wonder if that will ever take off.

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

That is only 9 divisions...computers can easily handle that.  If they actually wake up and respond to the demand to split out limited minor, then Production will quickly fall into the "smaller ones" category, Limited major won't be far behind, and CO will continue to lure away open shooters.  Let people have all of the division options at level 1.  Level 2 and above can limit participation to only the 5-6 most active divisions if prizes for all 9 are a problem.  If the market decides limited major is obsolete then so be it.  

 

 

Only 9 divisions lol. The biggest problem I have with more and more division is each matters less and less. It's like inflation, the more dollars you print the less each one is worth. Divisions work the same way, the more there are the less winning one matters. Some people don't care about winning, they just want to shoot. That's fine, but they can just shoot with out the org. adding any divisions.

 

Having divisions only recognized at level 1's probably wont go vary smoothly. Did you not see the PCC guys complaining with section matches didn't have PCC? 

[motosapiens]

is there really a 'demand' for limited minor? or is it just newbs that haven't gotten a grown-up competition gun yet? or cops shooting their duty gun with a flashlight? My last local match had equal numbers of lim minor and major shooters (6 each), but the top 4 (and 5 of the first 6) were shooting major, of course.

[shred]

More people shot Lim Minor on purpose than shot PCC in 2019 and that's twice as many as Single Stack and 4X Lim-10's "We need it because so many people in bad states", and a crapload more than Revo, yet nobody questions the demand for those.

 

If a dude wants to play USPSA with a duty gun and flashlight, or noob want to run full cap mags, or shoot a Revo or Single Stack or PCC because they like it, that's demand.   We may not like it, but it's there. 

 

That Lim Minor is so un-competitive that most actual competitors shoot something else probably means if it were a competitive division, there would be even more participation.

 

Am I lobbying for Lim-Minor?  No.

 

I'd rather dump the mandatory dot in CO first and see what happens.  It's stupid-easy to do.  Iron-hicap-CO still won't be very competitive, but it's a slightly saner place to put noobs and cops with duty guns than dropped right into Limited.  Then we could see if there's really demand for LimMinor or if its all just people playing or noobs without enough mags.

 

[MikeBurgess]

14 minutes ago, shred said:

More people shot Lim Minor on purpose than shot PCC in 2019 and that's twice as many as Single Stack and 4X Lim-10's "We need it because so many people in bad states", and a crapload more than Revo, yet nobody questions the demand for those.

 

If a dude wants to play USPSA with a duty gun and flashlight, or noob want to run full cap mags, or shoot a Revo or Single Stack or PCC because they like it, that's demand.   We may not like it, but it's there. 

 

That Lim Minor is so un-competitive that most actual competitors shoot something else probably means if it were a competitive division, there would be even more participation.

 

Am I lobbying for Lim-Minor?  No.

 

I'd rather dump the mandatory dot in CO first and see what happens.  It's stupid-easy to do.  Iron-hicap-CO still won't be very competitive, but it's a slightly saner place to put noobs and cops with duty guns than dropped right into Limited.  Then we could see if there's really demand for LimMinor or if its all just people playing or noobs without enough mags.

 

I think there is a difference between people shooting limited minor and demand for a division, I also think there is a difference between would people shoot a new division and a new division adding something to the sport that is needed.

 

What I am trying to say is would Lim Minor have lots of participation? Yes the data shows it 

Is moving half of local level limited shooters to a new division good for the sport? No you end up with one of 2 scenarios either Lim minor is where the non competitive shooters end up and winning it means nothing, or it becomes the dominate division and Lim major becomes non competitive and winning it means nothing, and thousands of members now own millions of dollars worth of guns for a dead division.

 

[Bayou]

I don't compete in USPSA yet, just local steel matches and I have been looking at the stats in my area. Limited and CO seem to be split in numbers from what I gather just by looking at the attendance. It appears to ebb and flow from which division has more than the other but It's obvious that roughly 75% of the limited division is shooting minor by the same stats. It has nothing to do with a "newbs that haven't gotten a grown-up competition gun yet" Shouldn't the numbers in participation dictate the divisions or they can quit changing rules and set them in stone.

[Jeff226]

On 8/20/2020 at 5:27 PM, shred said:

More people shot Lim Minor on purpose than shot PCC in 2019 and that's twice as many as Single Stack and 4X Lim-10's "We need it because so many people in bad states", and a crapload more than Revo, yet nobody questions the demand for those.

 

If a dude wants to play USPSA with a duty gun and flashlight, or noob want to run full cap mags, or shoot a Revo or Single Stack or PCC because they like it, that's demand.   We may not like it, but it's there. 

 

That Lim Minor is so un-competitive that most actual competitors shoot something else probably means if it were a competitive division, there would be even more participation.

 

Am I lobbying for Lim-Minor?  No.

 

I'd rather dump the mandatory dot in CO first and see what happens.  It's stupid-easy to do.  Iron-hicap-CO still won't be very competitive, but it's a slightly saner place to put noobs and cops with duty guns than dropped right into Limited.  Then we could see if there's really demand for LimMinor or if its all just people playing or noobs without enough mags.

 

The only way to measure the true demand for limited minor is to offer it as its own division...not keep coming up with arbitrary ways to keep/stick it in another division where it is disadvantaged.  Anybody who has taken the time to get good with a dot knows it is better than irons.

[sc68cal]

On 8/20/2020 at 5:27 PM, shred said:

I'd rather dump the mandatory dot in CO first and see what happens.  It's stupid-easy to do.  Iron-hicap-CO still won't be very competitive, but it's a slightly saner place to put noobs and cops with duty guns than dropped right into Limited. 

 

At least when they're in limited division, it's just major vs. minor scoring. Putting them into a division where they're competing directly against equipment with optics while they're still shooting irons is is the same as when someone in Production messes up their belt and gets put into Open. They'll get crushed.

Edited August 25, 2020 by sc68cal

[shred]

We've already seen that Limited Major beats CO head-to-head on the same stages from Nationals. 

 

So if anything scores will be slightly better competing no-dot CO against dot CO rather than Lim Major.

 

And either way, there's no need for the mandatory dot in CO, is there?

 

 

[Overscore]

When I get voted in as USPSA president this November, I'm eliminating the whole major/minor PF business across the board.  It's total nonsense, and it's at the root of all these debates about divisions.  We all know that if I shoot someone in the kidney with a .40, it will not have a 33% greater effect on that person's life than if it had been a 9.  Same with the forehead.

[Jeff226]

11 hours ago, shred said:

We've already seen that Limited Major beats CO head-to-head on the same stages from Nationals. 

 

So if anything scores will be slightly better competing no-dot CO against dot CO rather than Lim Major.

 

And either way, there's no need for the mandatory dot in CO, is there?

 

 

What would be accomplished by making the scores "slightly" better when there is still a glaring disparity?  It would also create the problem of limited minor disappearing into carry optics...how would you know how many used an optic vs who didn't?

 

You "need" an optic in carry "optics" more than you need major power factor in limited.  The optic requirement levels the field in a division created for competition with optics.  Major power factor perpetuates a known scoring disadvantage against limited minor.  

 

Putting these two together doesn't do anything to solve the problem...it just shifts the problem.  I don't see the benefit in messing up carry optics, a well defined competitive division that is very popular and growing, just to avoid adding one more division into the computer or just replacing production with limited minor.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Jeff226
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