The progression of CO

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, p7fl said:

 

My take is that Major and Minor had their day. But the shooting world has passed it by. I

 

 

I've really not heard a good explanation of how the world has passed by major scoring. Some say 40 is obsolete, but you can buy it in stores. Brass still costs the same as 9 and is easy to get. Plus people are also shooting actual obsolete rounds like 38 super, super-comp, revo guys shoot 30 short colt and 38 long colt. So that's not a real issue for this game. Shooters who want to do well will buy the right equipment. 

 

So it must be the world has moved on from recoil? We need 59 oz guns at 125.1 pf to shoot fast?

[zzt]

 

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Shooters who want to do well will buy the right equipment. 

 

So it must be the world has moved on from recoil? We need 59 oz guns at 125.1 pf to shoot fast?

 

I think you nailed it on both counts.

[IVC]

6 hours ago, p7fl said:

My take is that Major and Minor had their day. But the shooting world has passed it by.

That was exactly my point - let people shoot 22 LR since minor/major are now obsolete. Airsoft should work too because people can shoot faster. We can make it such that the pellet doesn't even have to perforate the cardboard - we just look for small dents, similar to some underpowered loads at local matches which are "declared minor," but can't knock over a steel that falls on its own in the breeze. 

 

Let's bring it to the 21 century and make it snowflake-friendly...

 

(Again, it's sarcasm, obviously.)

[Overscore]

If you shoot major in USPSA and carry minor in your EDC gun, you subconsciously agree that major/minor power factor is irrelevant.

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Overscore said:

If you shoot major in USPSA and carry minor in your EDC gun, you subconsciously agree that major/minor power factor is irrelevant.

A. that is dumb because people drive Top Fuel Dragsters in competition but you don't see if many on the road going back and forth to work. And B, even if it wasn't dumb I shoot major and my carry gun has major and then some ammo. 

[RJH]

I just put the maths to it, my carry gun has 212 power factor ammo LOL.

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, Overscore said:

If you shoot major in USPSA and carry minor in your EDC gun, you subconsciously agree that major/minor power factor is irrelevant.

 

If you think uspsa has anything to do with EDC you're playing the wrong game. 

[Overscore]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

A. that is dumb because people drive Top Fuel Dragsters in competition but you don't see if many on the road going back and forth to work. And B, even if it wasn't dumb I shoot major and my carry gun has major and then some ammo. 

 

If people drove cars as a means of protecting their lives, and it was deemed that the minimum requirement for effective protection was a top fuel dragster, you would.  My point is that we all know through the endless, ridiculous caliber debates out there, that 9mm is just as effective at .40 or .45.  So, shooting major is done only for scoring, which is absurd.

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If you think uspsa has anything to do with EDC you're playing the wrong game. 

Yep

[JGus]

On 8/26/2020 at 6:37 PM, LuvDog said:

I’m in the camp of I preferred when it was production with a dot. 
 

The new rules have opened it up to so much tweaking that it seems like a game of trying to mod the gun with as much money as possible that they aren’t even recognizable as “off the shelf” anymore

 

Limited and Open are the place for full custom guns 

 

 

While I like being able to use 140mm mags in CO and hose away, I did prefer when it was similar to PRD with 10 rounds.  People can moan all they want that in the "real world" there are 15 or 17 rounds in a mag.  Yeah, we know.  But this is a game.  Again, let me repeat, this is a game.  Let's put some obstacles into the game to make it a little more challenging. Obstacles that rely on skill and practice (such as having to do two or three mag reloads during a stage).

 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Overscore said:

 

If people drove cars as a means of protecting their lives, and it was deemed that the minimum requirement for effective protection was a top fuel dragster, you would.  My point is that we all know through the endless, ridiculous caliber debates out there, that 9mm is just as effective at .40 or .45.  So, shooting major is done only for scoring, which is absurd.

IDPA is calling, sounds like you should pick up. And I've actually killed things with all of the rounds and anybody who says there's not a difference in live target reaction is full of s***, but whatever.

 

All of that matters not though, games have rules. Quit whining and play by the rules or find a new game

[Overscore]

14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If you think uspsa has anything to do with EDC you're playing the wrong game. 

 

I understand that.  But, what is the point of power factor?  If it doesn't have roots in the belief that higher power factor yields more effective damage to flesh, or points to a cardboard target, then what's the point?  Perhaps we can have a continuously variable scoring system where:

 

C point value = (chrono'd velocity * bullet weight) /125,000 * 3

such that if you're shooting with exactly 125 PF, you get 3 points.  But, if you up it a little to 135, now you get 3.24 points, 153 PF will give you 3.672 points for a charlie, 169 PF yields 4.056 points, and then everyone can play their own game as far as how high they want to go instead of having this arbitrary line that exists between major and minor now.

 

Obviously that's an absurd suggestion, but it also shines light on the absurdity of major and minor scoring.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Overscore

[Overscore]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

All of that matters not though, games have rules. Quit whining and play by the rules or find a new game

 

I'm playing the online forum game, where the rules are that discussion of opinions is a primary function.  When I play the USPSA game at the range, I don't discuss opinions of rules.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, Overscore said:

 

I'm playing the online forum game, where the rules are that discussion of opinions is a primary function.  When I play the USPSA game at the range, I don't discuss opinions of rules.

 

 

Well, you suck at the online forum game cause power factor has 0 to do with the OP......

[ima45dv8]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Well, you suck at the online forum game

Tone it down a little...

[Racinready300ex]

40 minutes ago, Overscore said:

 

I understand that.  But, what is the point of power factor?  

 

Simple if you want a points advantage you must deal with more recoil. Don't want to deal with more recoil you give up some points.

 

Nothing to do with EDC or the FBI's caliber or choice, nothing about damage to flesh or any other stuff. This is simply a game with rules that you don't like.

[MikeBurgess]

38 minutes ago, Overscore said:

 

I understand that.  But, what is the point of power factor?  If it doesn't have roots in the belief that higher power factor yields more effective damage to flesh, or points to a cardboard target, then what's the point?  Perhaps we can have a continuously variable scoring system where:

 

power factor came from 45ACP and 357 magnum being harder to shoot fast with than 9mm and 38spl, there needed to be some way to even up the playing field, yes the early practitioners were under the belief that a 45 was better than a 9mm in a gun fight.

 

When looking at it as a game though a 45 with 8 rounds vs a 9mm with 13 makes for a pretty interesting choice, but now we have 141.25mm mags with 20-21 in 40 and 23-24 in 9mm, 3 rounds at that capacity doesn't make for the same decisions

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

59 minutes ago, Overscore said:

C point value = (chrono'd velocity * bullet weight) /125,000 * 3

such that if you're shooting with exactly 125 PF, you get 3 points.  But, if you up it a little to 135, now you get 3.24 points, 153 PF will give you 3.672 points for a charlie, 169 PF yields 4.056 points, and then everyone can play their own game as far as how high they want to go instead of having this arbitrary line that exists between major and minor now.

 

Obviously that's an absurd suggestion, but it also shines light on the absurdity of major and minor scoring.

 

It is worth noting, in my opinion, that the game was built for paper scoring and now the game is played with computer scoring for the most part. 

 

If folks wanted to they could make major/minor a personal preference in all divisions that have major/minor, rather than a choice that needs to be made based on which option is competitive. 

[Jeff226]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

power factor came from 45ACP and 357 magnum being harder to shoot fast with than 9mm and 38spl, there needed to be some way to even up the playing field, yes the early practitioners were under the belief that a 45 was better than a 9mm in a gun fight.

 

When looking at it as a game though a 45 with 8 rounds vs a 9mm with 13 makes for a pretty interesting choice, but now we have 141.25mm mags with 20-21 in 40 and 23-24 in 9mm, 3 rounds at that capacity doesn't make for the same decisions

 

 

Agreed.  In addition to that, the power factor for major has dropped from 185 to 165 (so much for manning up and going to the gym) so the scoring bonus for shooting major is way too generous for the negligible difference in recoil and capacity.    

 

 

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Simple if you want a points advantage you must deal with more recoil. Don't want to deal with more recoil you give up some points.

 

Nothing to do with EDC or the FBI's caliber or choice, nothing about damage to flesh or any other stuff. This is simply a game with rules that you don't like.

It is a game with rules that don't make sense in some cases.  The rules have been changed almost every year since inception so why would they stop now?  Baffles me why some people are so intent on maintaining an obvious imbalance in the rules.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Jeff226

[BritinUSA]

Why is it still called Carry Optics...?
 

The name was given when it was restricted to light weight polymer guns. That restriction is no longer in place, does the name still make sense?

[TrackCage]

28 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Why is it still called Carry Optics...?
 

The name was given when it was restricted to light weight polymer guns. That restriction is no longer in place, does the name still make sense?

Who cares what it's called?

[-JCN-]

4 hours ago, Overscore said:

If you shoot major in USPSA and carry minor in your EDC gun, you subconsciously agree that major/minor power factor is irrelevant.

That is silly. My 9mm 147gr +P HST carry ammo has almost exactly the same PF as my gamer 40SW ammo. 
 

It’s actually the reason why I like Limited major. It’s as close to 9mm carry ammo feeling as you get in a game. 
 

9mm competition ammo? It’s wimpier than a lot of 380 ACP. 

[JGus]

This topic has really derailed.

[IVC]

17 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Why is it still called Carry Optics...?

Well, the guns have optics on them, then you carry them around in your holster... 

[will77]

Last match I shot there was only one other limited major shooter besides myself and few open shooters. Most were shooting CO