The progression of CO

[rowdyb]

please stay on topic about the progression of Carry Optics. the topic is not about making new divisions now.

[LuvDog]

I’m in the camp of I preferred when it was production with a dot. 
 

The new rules have opened it up to so much tweaking that it seems like a game of trying to mod the gun with as much money as possible that they aren’t even recognizable as “off the shelf” anymore

 

Limited and Open are the place for full custom guns 

 

[outerlimits]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Here's what we do, no more divisions just run what ever you want. At check in you'll get your trophy, sort of like running a marathon. Just by showing up you're already a winner. 

 

If we have 13 divisions like SC and 6 classifications we're already going to have 78 winners. May as well just let everyone win. 

this is genius-let's just go back to when we started this game.  and while we're at it, dump the kids, cops, seniors, non-binary categories.  run what ya brung!

[Jeff226]

9 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Here's what we do, no more divisions just run what ever you want. At check in you'll get your trophy, sort of like running a marathon. Just by showing up you're already a winner. 

 

If we have 13 divisions like SC and 6 classifications we're already going to have 78 winners. May as well just let everyone win. 

I would gladly trade classification winners across the board for a proper competitive limited minor division vs leaving it the bastard stepchild of 40 Smith and obsolete for 5 more years.  I can't see the logic in arbitrarily limiting divisions, especially one that makes as much sense as limited minor, because of trophies/prizes.

[ima45dv8]

2 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I would gladly trade classification winners across the board for a proper competitive limited minor division vs leaving it the bastard stepchild of 40 Smith and obsolete for 5 more years.  I can't see the logic in arbitrarily limiting divisions, especially one that makes as much sense as limited minor, because of trophies/prizes.

So unless I misunderstood you, it sounds like you want to see Limited Minor as a separate division instead of making all of Limited a minor-only division? Either way, that's what we have today, in terms of SCORING. All one division, but some are scored Major; some are scored Minor. It's easy enough to break out the different PFs scored in PS if that's what people want.

[Jeff226]

5 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

So unless I misunderstood you, it sounds like you want to see Limited Minor as a separate division instead of making all of Limited a minor-only division? Either way, that's what we have today, in terms of SCORING. All one division, but some are scored Major; some are scored Minor. It's easy enough to break out the different PFs scored in PS if that's what people want.

Correct, limited minor a separate division and Limited Major continue as long as people want to shoot it.  I don't agree with making everything minor, which from all indications is what seems to be coming at some point.  

 

Similar to your point, it would be easy enough to break out Production and Revolver scoring if we tossed them into limited division as well...but we don't do that because there is a competitive difference.  We all know minor is not competitive in limited and splitting it out would allow it to have its own classification hit factors...which would be much more similar to production than limited.

 

[ima45dv8]

I've seen so much discussion of late about making Limited Minor its own division, or even worse, making all of the Limited division ALL minor. 

 

Why? Is it that people can't handle the immense recoil of Limited Major loads? Get a membership at a gym.

 

Or is it just a case of "I don't want to go to the trouble of loading major, so everyone else should be forced to go Minor since I do"?  

 

As Mr. Schultz so pointedly stated, it seems a lot of people are confusing Scoring with Divisions. If you want to shoot Minor, then pull out the results of others doing the same and find a place to pound your breast. Otherwise, stop trying to adjust an established and successful division to a power factor that meets your particular gun.

 

It ain't all about you.

 

 

 

[warpspeed]

4 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

I've seen so much discussion of late about making Limited Minor its own division, or even worse, making all of the Limited division ALL minor. 

 

Why? Is it that people can't handle the immense recoil of Limited Major loads? Get a membership at a gym.

 

Or is it just a case of "I don't want to go to the trouble of loading major, so everyone else should be forced to go Minor since I do"?  

 

As Mr. Schultz so pointedly stated, it seems a lot of people are confusing Scoring with Divisions. If you want to shoot Minor, then pull out the results of others doing the same and find a place to pound your breast. Otherwise, stop trying to adjust an established and successful division to a power factor that meets your particular gun.

 

 

 

 

And this has what to do with the progression of CO ?

 

Start a new thread if you want to discuss it. Perhaps we can get a mod to clean up the extraneous posts.

[ima45dv8]

2 minutes ago, warpspeed said:

 

And this has what to do with the progression of CO ?

 

Start a new thread if you want to discuss it. Perhaps we can get a mod to clean up the extraneous posts.

Uh...

 

Look up two posts at what Jeff226, and others before that, have been proposing.

[Racinready300ex]

8 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

I would gladly trade classification winners across the board for a proper competitive limited minor division vs leaving it the bastard stepchild of 40 Smith and obsolete for 5 more years.  I can't see the logic in arbitrarily limiting divisions, especially one that makes as much sense as limited minor, because of trophies/prizes.

 

More divisions = less competition in a competition. Look at IDPA, vary little competition so no one cares if you're a national champion. Let alone a state champion, or the hot dog at your local club. 

 

40 is pretty far from obsolete, but I get some people don't like shooting major caliber rounds. Really though this sport whether or not a caliber is obsolete makes zero difference. A good example of that is revolver division. When they started allowing 8 shot minor guns people jumped to 38 short colt in 627's. It doesn't get much more obsolete then that, yet some how competitors found a way. If the goal is attract people who aren't competitors it's a loosing battle. 

[waktasz]

20 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I think you are both nuts.  You cannot effectively merge any of those Divisions, especially with full mag rules.  That tells all the SS shooters to stay home, because 8 rounds vs. 17 or more is a distinct disadvantage.  SS minor won't do because a 10-round mag won't fit in the box.   Merging Limited is just as silly.  Those shooters will simply download to minor and wipe everyone up.

 

And while you are being silly, since you want to allow single action in Production, why not CO?

 

10 round 9mm and 40 mags fit the box. There could be an exemption for 45 mags if that's what they wanted to do, there already is in L-10. 

 

There are too many divisions as it is, and SS participation is declining. I think the sport would benefit more from this Limited-minor talk more that it does by having SS as its own division. You could name the Prod/SS division "Factory" or something. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by waktasz

[BadShot]

I'm now 68 years old and shoot mostly for the enjoyment of the game.  I shot CO for one season in 2018 and liked it a lot.  I then discovered Open.  The dot was much easier to see and with major scoring you just aimed for the center of the target and pulled the trigger.  A lot of fun and you could go very fast.  I'm now kind of bored with it.  I picked up a CZ Shadow 2 Orange and have been shooting limited minor and can see why people like it.  But, the sights are really hard for me to see. I'm probably going to wonder back to CO next year.  Side question - Would it be against the wishes of the CZ purists if I was to have CZC cut the side for their RDS system?

 

Thanks

Edited August 27, 2020 by BadShot

[zzt]

37 minutes ago, BadShot said:

Side question - Would it be against the wishes of the CZ purists if I was to have CZC cut the side for their RDS system?

 

Who cares?  Go for it.  When I couldn't see irons anymore I put dots on everything.

[waktasz]

Purists? CZ makes optic ready pistols now

[arkadi]

CO should allow appendix carry.

 

RO will verify the muzzle is not farther than 2 1/8” from the junk.

[Dazhi]

Looking at CO progression, it got so much more popular after the mag capacity change.  That's why people looking along the same line at other divisions, e.g. Prod, Limited, start to wonder if high-cap 9mm is the solution to merge/reduce/revive iron divisions.   It makes sense because CO has been a very successful experiment. 

[BadShot]

1 minute ago, Dazhi said:

Looking at CO progression, it got so much more popular after the mag capacity change.  That's why people looking along the same line at other divisions, e.g. Prod, Limited, start to wonder if high-cap 9mm is the solution to merge/reduce/revive iron divisions.   It makes sense because CO has been a very successful experiment. 

I initially didn't think that they should have increased the mag capacity.  Now that I have shot it some, I think it was a good move.

[Jeff226]

 

 

7 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

There are too many divisions as it is, and SS participation is declining. I think the sport would benefit more from this Limited-minor talk more that it does by having SS as its own division. You could name the Prod/SS division "Factory" or something. 

 

I don't think adding one more division while we let them all shake out will break the system but I agree with you on taking a closer look at all of the 10 rd divisions.  If we have to consolidate/reduce divisions for some reason, and considering Production is so far from "production" at this point, one division that combines production/single stack/ and limited 10 into a 10rd minor/8 round major division would result in a net reduction of 1 division after adding limited minor.  If we are being honest, single stack is the only division where DVC still matters and that would be our opportunity to keep it IF we wanted to.  Unless we totally get rid of power factor (which I do not advocate) then having 10 rd single stack major in the same division as production minor creates the same issue we have with limited.

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Jeff226

[robchavous]

I initially didn't think that they should have increased the mag capacity.  Now that I have shot it some, I think it was a good move.

I agree. I was against it at first too, but hicap minor only is fun.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[waktasz]

6 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

 

 

 

I don't think adding one more division while we let them all shake out will break the system but I agree with you on taking a closer look at all of the 10 rd divisions.  If we have to consolidate/reduce divisions for some reason, and considering Production is so far from "production" at this point, one division that combines production/single stack/ and limited 10 into a 10rd minor/8 round major division would result in a net reduction of 1 division after adding limited minor.  If we are being honest, single stack is the only division where DVC still matters and that would be our opportunity to keep it IF we wanted to.  Unless we totally get rid of power factor (which I do not advocate) then having 10 rd single stack major in the same division as production minor creates the same issue we have with limited.

 

 

10 minor/8 major would ruin production though. 

[IVC]

Hey, since we are doing this "let's reduce recoil, but not get penalized scoring," why not allow .22 LR in Production? Or have 22 LR limited and have it score major since ".40 is a dying caliber and nobody needs major anyways..."

 

Steel Challenge has rimfire divisions, so why not USPSA? You get to start from low ready and never face up-range, but that's a precedent already established by the PCC, so why not? Or even allow rimfire PCCs and have them compete against the 9s, with the same scoring. Also, let's change the rules that poppers don't have to fall when hit with .22 LR and if they are activators, the swinger is considered a disappearing target for .22. I mean, that would be really convenient for those who would like to shoot .22 LR in USPSA, no? 

 

/sarcasm

[-JCN-]

6 hours ago, IVC said:

Hey, since we are doing this "let's reduce recoil, but not get penalized scoring," why not allow .22 LR in Production? Or have 22 LR limited and have it score major since ".40 is a dying caliber and nobody needs major anyways..."

 

Steel Challenge has rimfire divisions, so why not USPSA? You get to start from low ready and never face up-range, but that's a precedent already established by the PCC, so why not? Or even allow rimfire PCCs and have them compete against the 9s, with the same scoring. Also, let's change the rules that poppers don't have to fall when hit with .22 LR and if they are activators, the swinger is considered a disappearing target for .22. I mean, that would be really convenient for those who would like to shoot .22 LR in USPSA, no? 

 

/sarcasm

I actually like the idea of 22LR options for people who are super new and young juniors. Maybe it could work with sub minor scoring... like 3 points for an alpha, 2 points for a Charlie and zero for a delta. The scoring penalty would be such that it really wouldn’t be possible to out score a B class centerfire shooter. But they could work on movement skills and be blazing when they get older and can handle centerfire. 

[p7fl]

With apologies to Rowdy, I am really enjoying this thread. 1000 shooters and 1000 different opinions and approaches.

I've been shooting USPSA for 25 years.

 

My take is that Major and Minor had their day. But the shooting world has passed it by. It just doesn't make sense in 2020.

To add one more thought, I never never ever ever understood why we have classifications?  GM or Super Senior D, it does not matter. The scores are the scores.

It isn't 1994 anymore. A 2 or 3 year transition to the future could work.

Bottom line, just one old timers view: 

Refresh USPSA, step one and two is eliminate minor and major and classifications.

 

[-JCN-]

3 minutes ago, p7fl said:

With apologies to Rowdy, I am really enjoying this thread. 1000 shooters and 1000 different opinions and approaches.

I've been shooting USPSA for 25 years.

 

My take is that Major and Minor had their day. But the shooting world has passed it by. It just doesn't make sense in 2020.

To add one more thought, I never never ever ever understood why we have classifications?  GM or Super Senior D, it does not matter. The scores are the scores.

It isn't 1994 anymore. A 2 or 3 year transition to the future could work.

Bottom line, just one old timers view: 

Refresh USPSA, step one and two is eliminate minor and major and classifications.

 

Classifications are one of the things I like most about the sport. Because it allows me to compare myself and my progress against the national database. If I were in a weak region, it’d be easy to get the big fish / small pond mentality. Plus it gives me shooting goals that are independent of who shows up at a particular match. 

[RJH]

I think 10 minor/8 major would be great in production/SS/l10/revolver division.

 

I am OK with eliminating major/minor, but only if we eliminate calibration calls and go to steel must fall to score. If major/minor is the same then 9/40/45 will all knock steel over the exact same, right?  And if your blaster doesn't knock the steel over that is just a miss, and if the steel is an activator then that is just 3 misses and an FTSA.  

 

 

On the OP, i don't shoot a bunch of Carry OPs, but think I would prefer either a more restricted gun, or just let them be kinda wide open.  I don't care for the half way there stuff in CO or production, I really like the idea of a list, weight limit, and a box for both.  But overall  I think CO as it is now is pretty good  now