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The progression of CO


rowdyb
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Ok, I am not a CO specialist, so this comes from my lower case L limited perspective.

 

I shot the first CO nats at PASA park in 2016, what feels like ages ago. I used a CZ SP01 with a dovetail mount for a 2.5 moa RMR sight. Oh, and it was still 10 rounds. There were just 76 shooters at the first CO nats. No GM, seven M, four A, eight B, sixteen C, four D and 37 U. Looking at the upcoming nats there are already 197 registered shooters, sixteen GM and 63 M.

 

No surprise Max M won, Shane 2nd and Nils 3rd. Does anyone remember their pistol set ups? And only two of the top ten were even classified in CO! That's how new and uninterested people were in it.

 

Is the gun you're shooting in CO today, was it available in 2016?

 

Is there anyone who wishes it was still under the original rule set??

 

To me the round count change was the biggest driver of new competitors to the division, followed by more available guns that didn't require the customer to mill them for rds. The speed with which CO shooters shoot matches would shock people back in 16 I think. Also it didn't turn out to be a division solely populated by old people with bad eyes, it draws real competitors.

 

For the people who were early adopters and started shooting the division when it was provisional/new until now, how do you feel about the progression of the division? What have you noticed changing in the past 4 years?

Edited by rowdyb
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I wasn’t even shooting USPSA in ‘16. 
 

all I know is I like it now!

 

I would not like it under the old rules. I prefer the open lite aspect of it. I don’t think I’d like 15 rnds as much either. 
 

Don’t think my gun was available in ‘16. 
 

I wasn’t an early adopter so again, I can’t comment on rather or not I like it better now or then but I love it now. 
 

I think the name is kinda misleading. There’s not much carry about it, IMO. 

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21 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

wasn’t even shooting USPSA in ‘16.

you joined uspsa in august of 16..... and you earned an RO cert in december of 16.....

 

i moved to AR april of 16, you can blame it on me.

 

i totally agree the name is dumb and misleading.

Edited by rowdyb
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6 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

you joined uspsa in august of 16..... and you earned an RO cert in december of 16.....

 

i moved to AR april of 16, you can blame it on me.

I shot one or maybe two matches in USPSA in 16. I think. 
 

I was shooting the other sport. I think I joined both at the same time. My first IDPA match was June or July. I don’t think I got classified in USPSA until feb17 at a classifier match. 
 

I took that RO class because people told me I’d get an understanding of the sport. 🤣  It didn’t. I thought USPSA was too difficult to follow and almost thought I was just gonna stick with IDPA. You and the other AR shooters made it look like fun so I gave it a try. 
 

 

Edited by B_RAD
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I shot it as a provisional division when they first offered it. For me (normally an open shooter) I was looking for production with a dot

 I was using an m&p core with a first gen deltapoint.   I liked the whole idea of production with dot.

 

I don't love the changes to turn it into open lite and so went back to shooting open when those changes were allowed.  I understand the reasoning for the changes (and don't fully disagree with it and the way it has driven development in that space.)

 

From the perspective of growing the division and brining in folks who were looking for a place to shoot a gun with a dot (and making a place for normal guns with dots on them) , overall I think it's good... If for no other reason than when a shooter shows up at the match with a normalish gun with a dot on it I don't have to have to break the news to them that they are competing against full house race guns.

 

I picked up a bull shadow recently from a friend that's been milled for CZC optics plates and will probably stick a dot on it and dabble some more in it later this year. To see what I think about it now. This gun wasn't (I don't believe) avaliable when CO started nor would it have been legal (too heavy)

 

For reference I am a middle of the road open M and former (and occasionally still) Uspsa match director.

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After a long stint as a service rifle and long range rifle competitor, I tried USPSA in Production in late 2014 (shot 3 or 4 matches before the season ended).  Went back to NRA rifle for 2015 then shot another 3 - 4 USPSA matches in the fall of 2015.  Spent the next 3.5 years shooting sporting clays competitively but the expense just got to be too much to stay competitive.  So at the end of the 2018 season I thought about trying handgun competition again and shot the last few matches of that season in Production.  I liked it enough that I decided to get back up to reasonable pistol shooting shape over the winter and jump headfirst back into Production (first with a CZ 75 then with a tuned P-09) for 2019.

 

In Nov 2019 I bought a CZ P-10 thinking to try carry optics in 2020.  About a month later I slapped an RMR on it and shot a bunch of practice and few indoor matches with it over the winter.  Decided that 2020 was the year to shift to CO.  After struggling through the first 3 or 4 matches with the P-10 I sent my P-09's slide to get milled.  Shot a couple of matches with the P-09/RMR and ended up settling with it.

 

After one season in Production and one in CO, I'm staying with CO but I like neither the artificially low production magazine capacity limit nor the artificially high CO capacity.  I think we should split the difference and match IPSC's production and production optics 15 round limit and just be done with it.  15 rounds gives you a little more flexibility than 10 but doesn't force you to spend more money on magazine stuff to be on an even footing with everyone else (the way US rules are).

 

I can't grasp the aversion some people have to reloading a pistol more than once per stage.  I just can't.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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I don't shoot CO.  When ancient eyes forced me out of Limited I briefly considered CO.  However, I didn't like the ten round limit and I hate plastic guns.  SO I went Open.  The change to 140mm mags made me think again.  Several Open shooters changed to Co for a while.  They all switched back.  Now with the weight limit changes CO is gaining even more traction.

 

ROing for the four years of CO I've noticed several things.  It started out with Rube Goldberg guns and times were slow.  Double taps were slower because of muzzle rise.  As equipment caught up things got faster and faster.  Now with heavy guns and 140mm mags, I see some CO GMs beating Open GMs shooting major.  I was astonished the first time that happened.  Now I'm used to it.  Same thing with Ms and As.  With the equipment and rules as they are today, if I was now switching from Limited it would be to CO.  Geez!  So much easier and less expensive.

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I think ditching 10 rounds made the division take off as it became tangibly different than an offshoot of PD and also made it 'easier'.  Many people like easy (see: PCC).  It's an obvious takeaway looking at the who-shot-what-in-USPSA stats to say "Hicap divisons are growing, locaps are not".  and "9mm is where it's at" (although HQ had some different takeaways).  But personally I don't like the endless dicking with 140mm mags and another reload would make things interesting without being a PD or SS-style reload-fest (let alone Revo).  15 or 16 would add maybe 1 load per stage while adding a bit of planning challenge and Nats in Utah pretty much decided that major with iron sights beats minor with a dot, so it's not like the overalls are going to change greatly one way or the other.

 

I also think the mandatory dot was (and remains) dumb.  It adds complexity for no return.  People are going to run a dot anyway if they are serious and it's a much better place to park noobs than Limited Minor.  I'd also like to allow single-action pistols with a trigger weight limit, but NWIH as I read the tea-leaves.

 

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1 hour ago, robchavous said:

I think at the very least USPSA missed an opportunity to try out 15rd CO during the provisional period and potentially make a case for 15rd Prod.

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For the life of me I don't see why 15 rounds in prod is so controversial.

 

The people stuck in ban states can use grandfathered mags or run their matches with everyone at 10 round (like Canada) or a combination of both.  The problems of the few should not drive the train.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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I started shooting it back when it was 10 round. I shoot the same G17 now, just stuck long mags in it and ground the finger grooves off when rules allowed it.

 

I liked the ten rounds, I enjoy the higher cap more. The max weight rule doesn't bother me, neither did the old + whatever ounces. I think the add whatever you want "small parts" is dumb but doesn't really affect anything at this point. I think it's interesting to see many chasing weight. I'm glad the optics are more durable, and choices have improved I think competition drove this. I think the classification system is a bit more representative now than it was in the beginning. I think the old guys coming over because they can't see the front sight and young guys come over cause "it's easy" are funny when they walk their way thru the stages, shoot super slow, and complain of losing the dot all the time, the optic has no positive impact if any at all on their shooting, but as long as they enjoy it I'm all for it. I think it's pulled more people from production than its brought new shooters to USPSA.

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2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

For the life of me I don't see why 15 rounds in prod is so controversial.

 

2 hours ago, shred said:

Yeah, not a great clamor for CO-10 and Open-10 and PCC-10, is there?

 

I mostly shoot Production and prefer the stage breakdown and reload emphasis of 10 rounds. But I'd also like to have more in common with IPSC, in principle. If that means 15-rd Production and bull barrels in SS I won't really complain.

If Production went to 15 rounds I don't know if I'd just shoot with 15, or if I'd start shooting more SS. I actually wouldn't mind a Pro/SS combined division as "Lo-cap" that was 10 minor / 8 major with magwells for single column guns and not for double column that would also absorb Lim-10.

I don't mean to derail Rowdy's interesting thread with this comment though.  I haven't shot CO yet as I'm mostly attracted to shooting based on stage breakdown for the 10/8 round divisions and the associated risk/reward stress that comes with potentially going to slide lock on a risky make-up. I understand the 20+ capacity guys view the stages as more continuous flow and less as discrete shooting positions.

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I haven't shot CO yet, Production shooter. This is also only my 2nd year shooting USPSA. I do have a question for you guys though.

Is it more of the lower class Production shooters moving to CO at your clubs?

That's what I've noticed around the local clubs to me. Most of the guys that moved to CO were D & C class shooters. Mostly from Production but some from Limited as well. It's typically the division with the most shooters at the local matches now.

What's interesting is that I shot a match up North last weekend. This club draws a lot of local talent. Quite a number A class and higher. It was refreshing to see that the Production division was by the largest at the match. Nice to shoot along side and learn from great Production shooters.




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Gen 4 MOS pistols came out in '16? The S&W CORE in 2015? Anyone else have a factory milled gun back in 16? So from say 2017 to 2020 we could have went from 2 factory milled guns to 6 or more? Glock, CZ, S&W, Canik, Tangfolio, Sig

 

I have one single Open classifier and it came from shooting a G34 with a dovetail mounted dot when CO was still provisional and your club didn't have to recognize it.

 

In 4 short years participation has jumped. Factories have made new guns. The rules have changed a few times. And the speed of which people shoot in the division has noticeably sped up.

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We are all shooting 10 rounds up here.

 

my observation is CO (Prod Optics) has taken shooters out of both open and production.  The older long time shooters who had to go to open for need of a dot have switched over.  It’s simply $$$$.  A few I can think of aren’t short of funds either.

 

PCC took a swift kick to the balls when our govt banned 90% of rifles used in PCC.  The FX9 is one that is still legal to leave the house.

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It seems to be robbing participants from production around me. Production is now down with revolver and single stack. I kind of get the feeling it’s as much the allure of 9mm more than the desire to shoot optics.

Just to echo a million other people, I would probably shoot Limited if I didn’t dislike 40S&W. Instead, Carry Optics seems to be a good place to land. Only possible downside is if I want to shoot the same gun in 3gun, it bumps me to open.


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Seems like lots of shooters that haven't settled on a preferred division, or think maybe they'd do better in CO are moving to CO to give that a try.  Always happens when a new division (or even shooting sport) opens up-- the top guys for the most part are grooved into what they like that they stick with that, so the field is wide open.  After a while the pecking order settles out and some of the interest wanes a bit.

 

As for the 2016 CO nats I think the Glock MOS were available by then.  I went to SHOT in 2016 and remember commenting that 'everybody' (in major pistol mfg's) was showing optic-ready guns, but it still took several years for them to show up in quantity.  Manufacturers saw it as a way to boost MSRPs and add models to the product line with just slide work.  Everyone knows gun buyers like new-shiny.

 

10th place in 16 shot a CZ Shadow with a Burris Fastfire on a dovetail mount.  Local character.

Max shot a P320.  Coley shot a Glock,  IIRC KC too and Robbie an XD.  Nils probably shot something borrowed the morning of the match ;)

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Essentially started USPSA in 2019 and just made “M” in CO. 

 

Had shot one Production match in 2016 and didn’t return until CO had the current ruleset. 
 

I think dots on micro carry guns are the way of the future. Before I came back to CO, I had found that I was more accurate and faster on every type of gun with a dot, so the combination of something semi applicable to self defense, same commercial ammo cost and availability (before COVID) and easier on the wrists and hands for practice along with more shooting stage plans instead of “drop mag every time you move” plans were appealing. 
 

Even though an SRO on a Shadow 2 isn’t quite a carry gun, it translates over beautifully to a carry P01 with a DPP. 
 

It seems like there is a type of younger USPSA participant who is very gung ho starting out and progresses quickly from B to M in the span of 12 months or so. We have a bunch of them locally and the majority have settled in CO. 
 

 

Edited by -JCN-
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