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Open guns and hearing damage


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8 hours ago, ncrivello said:

Far from an expert on noise reduction of various ear pro but I'm under the impression that not all rated decibel reduction claims are made equal so to speak.  The MSA Sordin's I have are not rated among the higher decibel reducing ear pro out there at 18-19NRR but considered among the best ear pro out there.  

Yeah, but my ears rang for two days after wearing them to shoot Open indoors. They are OK outdoors but not nearly as good, or comfortable for that matter, as my peltor Tactical pro’s.

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22 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yeah, but my ears rang for two days after wearing them to shoot Open indoors. They are OK outdoors but not nearly as good, or comfortable for that matter, as my peltor Tactical pro’s.

 

My experience has been that the Sordins poor DBA rating is well deserved and their "but we are better than the rating" hype is pure hype. That is based on wearing them, you can also make a reasonable judgment just comparing their construction to the more effective muffs, this is not magic stuff, thicker and more densely padded works much better. 

 

I like the Sordins for shooting 9mm outdoors & similar stuff where you do not need a lot of noise suppression.  

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I bought the Sordins based on that info too.

 

Pure BS.

 

Not as good as the old howard leight Princess Leia ones I was wearing. Much more comfy with the silicon pads though but I did start double plugging once I bought them whereas I didnt before. 

 

 

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I just keep buying foamies with a nrr or 32 or 33.... I had a pair of HL impact sports and got rig of them immediately and at the far end of the other spectrum pro ear golds. ear cups fell apart, finish wore off super fast, pick up foam fell off, heavy. they worked great but were not nearly durable as i'd hoped after what happened in just one season of use.

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10 hours ago, ncrivello said:

Far from an expert on noise reduction of various ear pro but I'm under the impression that not all rated decibel reduction claims are made equal so to speak.  The MSA Sordin's I have are not rated among the higher decibel reducing ear pro out there at 18-19NRR but considered among the best ear pro out there.  

 

Yes, but you are just ticking the surface. Noise Rating Reductions are actually for more than just one frequency, but over a spectrum. So when you read NRR think about how really the marketer is just picking the biggest NRR and not the average NRR across all frequencies. In this study we can all learn a lot more about hearing damage and protection: (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5634813/)

 

Note in the study it states "The attenuation of hearing protectors is commonly labeled (and marketed) with values obtained using continuous noise at hearing threshold levels in a laboratory setting (e.g., noise reduction rating). When products designed for impulse noise are tested under these conditions, the noise reduction rating is negligible (<10 dB) and the consumer is left misinformed." 

 

It would be good to read this study to understand how difficult rating noise reduction is. All of the shooters using marketing for their purchasing decisions have the potential of not really hearing the truth. (sorry for the pun) 

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I’m having pretty good luck so far using the Peltor Tactical Sport 500 for outdoors. I don’t shoot Open, but RO a lot and don’t find the Open guns too loud under normal conditions with those muffs. 

 

I do find that some Open guns, or certain positions/angles, have more “blast” than others. They don’t sound excessively loud, but I definitely feel the concussion from the comp in my face/sinuses a lot more than others. ARs in 3 Gun are even worse. 

 

Indoors, the only option that works well is to double plug. 

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I shot open for many many years, including back in the 175 PF and 9x25 Dillon days.

 

IME the high-NRR electronic muffs (and I've tried most of them) are not as quiet as they claim-- with my ears and head and glasses and so on.  A better-fitting pair with a lower NRR is way quieter.  Generally that means passive muffs which is extra annoying when you double-plug.   Right now I have some 3Ms that I use for Open.  Industrial muffs in general seem better than gun-guy ones, possibly because there's more chance of hearing-loss lawsuit in an industrial environment.

 

Plugs also vary considerably.  The soft foam ones like the Howard Leight are the best I've found for noise.  The old yellow foam and the 3-flap kind are terrible.

 

 

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I have been using the Howard Leight NRR33 soft foam earplugs for some time.  I buy them by the case.  You do have to compress and insert them properly.  When fully inserted into the ear canal, I believe they do reduce by 33dB.  Cover them with an NRR28 ear muff and you can barely hear the RO.  I just ordered a pair of Peltor Tactical Sport 500 muffs.  Based on some of the comments here, I'm hoping they will allow me to hear commands better while double plugged, and provide the same protection as my non-electronic muffs.

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Correction for above.  My Peltor Ultimate 10 earmuffs are rated at NRR30.  I just received the Peltor Tactical Sport 500s and tried them out.  The are rated at NRR26.  However, without electronics they definitely reduce sound by more the the Ultimate 10s.  I think it is because of the better ear cups and sealing.  They are also a lot more comfortable to wear.

Edited by zzt
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On 6/10/2019 at 4:58 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

I'm using the fattest muff that Pro Ears makes, 32 DB on paper if I remember right, maybe the peltors would be better. 

 

I had problems with pro ears, I had the highest NNR electronic muff they sold at the time, and the band was too stiff and didn’t seal around my ears

ive gone with peltors, first the tac pros, and now the tactical 500 and have been happy with them, a couple of buddies use the Msa sordins and they both double plug when they shoot open

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On 6/13/2019 at 8:09 AM, Smithcity said:

This is why the world would be better if everyone shot pcc, all our ears would be happier!


The promised land is a suppressed shooting match. We did a suppressors only "Civilized" pistol and rifle match with 1 squad of "Inconsiderate Jerks" allowed to run comps and such. Nobody wanted to be on that squad at the end of the day. Shooting suppressed is just so much more pleasant for all involved. 

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6 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:


The promised land is a suppressed shooting match. We did a suppressors only "Civilized" pistol and rifle match with 1 squad of "Inconsiderate Jerks" allowed to run comps and such. Nobody wanted to be on that squad at the end of the day. Shooting suppressed is just so much more pleasant for all involved. 

That would be awesome! Ive run suppressed in 3 gun, it was a blast, I highly recommend it. While suppressors are banned in uspsa pcc, it isnt in open. As a result, you can run a suppressor in open till the rule book catches up, ill be running my maxim 9 with a dot in open for fun.

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On 6/13/2019 at 9:09 AM, Smithcity said:

This is why the world would be better if everyone shot pcc, all our ears would be happier!

well back to the OP, I agree about the rule set,, but the rules should address a minimum AND a maximum,,, as long as we are using sound activated timers..
Far as plugs ? I plug all day everyday anyways.. Did the same at the range,, the foamy's.  Then put ear muffs on over them when I was shooting or when I was RO'ing an open shooter.

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14 minutes ago, Jeremyc_1999 said:

I had to wear plugs and muffs when I shot open. It was one of the deciding factors to move on from the class

Open is a division, not a class. 😉

Edited by Sarge
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11 hours ago, Joe4d said:

well back to the OP, I agree about the rule set,, but the rules should address a minimum AND a maximum,,, as long as we are using sound activated timers..

 

There was a GM open shooter on my squad yesterday, like most open guns his was loud but not crazy loud if you had 30 db or better protection. 

Not sure that dba limits designed to protect the r.o.'s and squad mates would effect what most people shoot, just the few who are shooting the most extremely loud open guns.

Edited by IHAVEGAS
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think I saw a few threads about timer problems with PCC being too quiet,,, so if we gonna do a rule might as well do it both ways. HAvent shot in a long time but I remember people call longshot loud shot. 38 supers were more common,  seemed WAC and HS6 were the powders for the handful of 9mm guys. Are their newer powders 9mm guys are using or new comp designs that have made things louder ?

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11 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

think I saw a few threads about timer problems with PCC being too quiet,,, so if we gonna do a rule might as well do it both ways. HAvent shot in a long time but I remember people call longshot loud shot. 38 supers were more common,  seemed WAC and HS6 were the powders for the handful of 9mm guys. Are their newer powders 9mm guys are using or new comp designs that have made things louder ?

 

Had one pcc reshoot yesterday for a timer did not pick it up issue, r.o. had to get back off the gun because the shooter sort of got flakey on his balance while shooting around a barricade. I think in the long term the main thing will be that all r.o.'s need to be disciplined about looking at the timer on the last shot, before we set them to max sensitivity for pcc I was in the habit of just holding the timer back and away from the shooter after the last shot. 

 

I do not know what makes the few crazy loud guns crazy loud.

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On 6/14/2019 at 3:24 AM, rishii said:

I had problems with pro ears, I had the highest NNR electronic muff they sold at the time, and the band was too stiff and didn’t seal around my ears

ive gone with peltors, first the tac pros, and now the tactical 500 and have been happy with them, a couple of buddies use the Msa sordins and they both double plug when they shoot open

FWIW, The Tac 500's are great and I use them for non-open guns, but for Open, these $22  3M's, even though they are close in NRR, are much quieter to me

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CPCHADQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Loudness is usually a factor of hybrid and barrel ports, plus 115gr bullets, all in the name of 'flatness'.

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13 minutes ago, shred said:

FWIW, The Tac 500's are great and I use them for non-open guns, but for Open, these $22  3M's, even though they are close in NRR, are much quieter to me

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CPCHADQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Loudness is usually a factor of hybrid and barrel ports, plus 115gr bullets, all in the name of 'flatness'.

Loudest open gun I ever heard was an SV shorty in 38Super with a hybrid barrel with 3 or 4 holes, on the indoor range. No one wanted to run him. 

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5 hours ago, OPENB said:

Loudest open gun I ever heard was an SV shorty in 38Super with a hybrid barrel with 3 or 4 holes, on the indoor range. No one wanted to run him. 

I had its big brother, 38 SC, six popolled style holes plus a great comp. 

ROs would double plug and stand directly behind me at the beep. 

The guns resides in FL now and squad mates are very happy. 

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On 6/15/2019 at 2:42 AM, shred said:

FWIW, The Tac 500's are great and I use them for non-open guns, but for Open, these $22  3M's, even though they are close in NRR, are much quieter to me

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CPCHADQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Loudness is usually a factor of hybrid and barrel ports, plus 115gr bullets, all in the name of 'flatness'.

When I got my 1st super, I used the peltor ultimate 10, quite ,comfortable couldn’t hear squat

then electronic muffs showed up and all the cool kids had them

now due to tinnitus, I gotta use electronic muffs, when I use regular hearing protection, all I hear is a constant eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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  • 4 weeks later...

I instruct trap shooting and shoot a handful of uspsa matches a year if I'm lucky. I had custom molded plugs made after the ringing started. I should have paid the 185 long ago. Seriously they are the quietest thing I've tried. I double up with electronic muffs and call it a day. When I had the plugs made I asked the guy if even with doubling up over time damage was happened, he conceded that there was, all those micro split second loud bangs add up.  

 

 

 

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