Open VS Limited Shooting (I want to release the hounds)

[Posvar]

I am an average Limited shooter and it is the platform I am most comfortable with and have the most time on. Nothing special and not horrible is where I would rate myself  (high B with some A classifications). Open is so much fun and I will be shooting it more and more. Dry fire is a daily occurrence in my household which has helped finding the dot, etc. Last Saturday I shot a 6 stage match with my 9mm Major Open gun and had a ton of fun.  A few things came to mind after the match that I am pondering...

 

1) When I get the dot in the window I tend to shoot it like a limited gun and not nearly as fast as it is capable of

 

2) I shot 5 targets on one long stage and forgot to wait to see the optic. Most targets were beyond 15 feet and all were at the worst scored as Alpha Charlie. Limited instincts kick in and tend to override open shooting. 

 

3) After the match we had a second classifier match and I shot both the open and limited guns. On only one stage did I score higher with the open gun. 

 

In summary I want to go faster and blaze it down but don't feel confident in that yet. How much of my limited background should I stick to and how much of the spray and pray side should I embrace?

 

 

[kujo929]

In my opinion learning the ability to call your shots will up your game in both limited and open to the next level. That’s the only way to become consistently good without any need to hope or “spray n pray “.

Personally I don’t like bouncing back and forth between irons and optic as I don’t have that amount of time to put in and still reach the goals I have set. If time isn’t a limiting factor then you should be able to train both.


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[MemphisMechanic]

The only way to get faster is to practice  shooting with lots of agression until you know what reckless speed feels like, and what controlled agression feels like.

 

Staying in your comfort zone isn’t going to get you anywhere.

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Rnlinebacker]

I am an average Limited shooter and it is the platform I am most comfortable with and have the most time on. Nothing special and not horrible is where I would rate myself  (high B with some A classifications). Open is so much fun and I will be shooting it more and more. Dry fire is a daily occurrence in my household which has helped finding the dot, etc. Last Saturday I shot a 6 stage match with my 9mm Major Open gun and had a ton of fun.  A few things came to mind after the match that I am pondering...
 
1) When I get the dot in the window I tend to shoot it like a limited gun and not nearly as fast as it is capable of
 
2) I shot 5 targets on one long stage and forgot to wait to see the optic. Most targets were beyond 15 feet and all were at the worst scored as Alpha Charlie. Limited instincts kick in and tend to override open shooting. 
 
3) After the match we had a second classifier match and I shot both the open and limited guns. On only one stage did I score higher with the open gun. 
 
In summary I want to go faster and blaze it down but don't feel confident in that yet. How much of my limited background should I stick to and how much of the spray and pray side should I embrace?
 
 

when I do open, I'm looking through the glass and shooting as fast I can pull the trigger while watching the dot bounce in my peripheral vision.

As long as I see it within the C zone im gonna keep hammering the trigger. If I see the dot bounce somewhere I'll make it.

Chris Tilley says "In Open, think of the dot as a paintbrush and use short quick strokes. In Iron Sights, think of yourself as a surgeon and the sights are your scalpel". This was an epiphany when I heard this

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[Aric]

Matt, you need more time behind the gun.  Some dry fire and one match isn’t enough.  

 

Also, you can learn a lot from the dot.  It will more than likely help you with iron sights as well.  

Edited January 14, 2019 by Aric
Additional info

[Hi-Power Jack]

You just need some more time behind the dot ….   

 

Practice some standard excercises, like an El Presidente - keep working on

getting the speed up until it finally comes to you.

 

You'll also notice, that learning to shoot fast with an OPEN gun will help

you tremendously shoot your Limited gun faster  …   Nice bonus    

[B_RAD]

Is there any resource (e.g. books, podcast,) out there geared specifically towards open?

[HoMiE]

Don’t spray and pray? Use your vision. Biggest thing with shooting open is it’s fast and if your trying to manage recoil and let the dot settle or stop, you’re shootingto slow. Work on your grip so the gun tracks and snap right back to what you want to hit. Let the doT Float on target and when you call two shots lifting from A zone, next target. Snap your eyes to next target, don’t look for your shots on previous target and don’t follow the dot to next. 

[HoMiE]

47 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Is there any resource (e.g. books, podcast,) out there geared specifically towards open?

Fundamentals are fundamentals.  Shooting a dot gives you instant feedback and you know where the “sights” are in relation all the time. If you can “see”  the dot you should be able to see the  sights as well or at least you can start to have confidence the sights  are on the target and start to figure out where to put your attention while shooting.  When you drive down the street you can put your focus down the road as well as be aware to what is going  on around you. Same thing applies while shooting. Learn where you need to put your attention for all the different target presentations. 

[Acsr]

+1 on shooting at the speed of sight, you can get away with shooting off index to a certain distance or target availability, but getting reckless or burning it down is a wreck waiting to happen and a bad habit to pick up,  the paintbrush analogy above is where its at

[Jimboslice]

The way I learned, good or bad was to shoot a ton of speed focused drills (el prez, blake, etc.) and not worry as much about accuracy for a little while, to really try to push speed. When I feel like it's getting too sloppy (throwing mikes), I'd dial it back a little to get better hits, then once that speed felt comfortable with good hits every time I'd push it again. Also, distance change ups and really wide transitions in practice at speed helps a lot as well.  

[zzt]

I shot faster in Limited than I do in Open.  9/10s of getting Open right is the proper load and the proper grip.  I have the load dead on.  The grip is a problem.  I shoot lots of guns for different things.  When I go back to Open, I have to remember THE grip.  It helps to shoot some practice the day before the match.  With THE grip, the dot tracks straight up and down, and muzzle rise is minimal.  The dot returns auto-magically and the second shot is less than .2 seconds.  Too much grip and the muzzle dives on the return.  Too little and the dot wiggles all over the place and you are slow centering it.

[motosapiens]

don't do *any* spray and pray unless you want to stay average.

 

do some practice.

 

particularly, some multi-shot drills where you learn how to grip the gun so the dot comes back where you want it. note that this stuff can help your limited shooting too, btw.

[CHA-LEE]

A properly tuned Open gun should allow you to shoot at a much faster pace than iron sights past 10 yards. Within 10 yards its a wash. The vast majority of targets at local club matches are within 10 yards with a few past that. A red dot Open gun provides three primary advantages over Iron sights. 1 - Red Dots are far superior in crappy lighting conditions. 2 - difficult shots can be made faster. 3 - Huge magazine capacity allows you to use stage plans that keep the gun running more than not running. 

 

For most Iron Sight shooters who transition to Open its very hard for them to break out of the pace of shooting that Iron Sights or recoil management restricted them to.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Look at the target not at the dot. Tape the front of your dot off and shoot with both eyes open. A plate rack is a good place to practice this. You will have to tune the gun to your load and shooting style. Double plug with ear plugs and muffs. Wear glasses that make the red dot pop for your eyes. That could be a red lens or even brown like I am using. Last thing is turn the dot off and shoot some close targets by just indexing off the scope and slide. Thanks, Eric

[jnr88]

Don't forget classifiers in Open need to be shot approximately 10% quicker for the same classification as Limited.

[levellinebrad]

@Posvar

 

i was was on your squad Saturday. You just need more time with the gun and to build confidence in your ability to shoot it. Compare your scores to mine, I was 9th overall. You will see that our hits were about the same except I had 4 mikes where you had 0 mikes. I ran the match in 101 seconds where you ran it in 134 seconds. The difference was in speed and speed is in transitions and moving into and out of position. Push the speed and make your eyes learn to keep up. I do that at a lot of local matches and have seen the improvements. I have had matches with 16 mikes but the mikes are getting less. You also need to take your dry fire outside. Practice shooting at a couple of target, reloading within a step, then eyes focused on the spot on the ground where your plant foot is going to go. Plant that foot and aquire  the target as your body is rotating into  position. You also need to do bill drills and transition drills in live fire. There is no reason that an old fat guy like me should be 33 seconds faster than you on a 6 stage match where 3 of those stages were classifiers. It was good shooting with you and hope to see you at the next one.

[MikeBurgess]

for me the biggest change going from shooting Irons to Optics is how  you are fed information from the sight. to me its the difference between linear irons and digital optics. For me to learn to go faster with a dot was the realization that the instant I saw the dot I had all the information it could give me, and to remember that on close targets where you would aim an irons gun by looking at the A zone never really see the sights you can shoot the same way with a dot.

 

With Irons you get a more linear on where the gun is aimed (think about how you can see when the front sight is way to the side of your target and you can see it moving towards the target and alignment with your rear sight  at the beginning you know the bullet would miss to the side but you don't know where exactly it would go as the sights align more you become more and more sure of where the bullet will go)

 

with a dot you either have zero information (no dot) or 100% information (the bullet will go where the dot is) 

[CHA-LEE]

7 hours ago, levellinebrad said:

@Posvar

 

i was was on your squad Saturday. You just need more time with the gun and to build confidence in your ability to shoot it. Compare your scores to mine, I was 9th overall. You will see that our hits were about the same except I had 4 mikes where you had 0 mikes. I ran the match in 101 seconds where you ran it in 134 seconds. The difference was in speed and speed is in transitions and moving into and out of position. Push the speed and make your eyes learn to keep up. I do that at a lot of local matches and have seen the improvements. I have had matches with 16 mikes but the mikes are getting less. You also need to take your dry fire outside. Practice shooting at a couple of target, reloading within a step, then eyes focused on the spot on the ground where your plant foot is going to go. Plant that foot and aquire  the target as your body is rotating into  position. You also need to do bill drills and transition drills in live fire. There is no reason that an old fat guy like me should be 33 seconds faster than you on a 6 stage match where 3 of those stages were classifiers. It was good shooting with you and hope to see you at the next one.

 

BOOM!!! Great advise from a fellow local shooter who has been able to observe and assess your performance directly.

[Posvar]

I wanted to give a huge thanks to all that responded and contributed. It means a lot and is exactly the help I’m looking for. By the end of the week I’ll have my target stands and extra props and targets in order take dry fire and live fire outside. Tonight I did 100 more rounds of each load I’m developing and will test Thursday. Can’t wait for the next match. Cheers 

[vgdvc]

23 hours ago, Posvar said:

I wanted to give a huge thanks to all that responded and contributed. It means a lot and is exactly the help I’m looking for. By the end of the week I’ll have my target stands and extra props and targets in order take dry fire and live fire outside. Tonight I did 100 more rounds of each load I’m developing and will test Thursday. Can’t wait for the next match. Cheers 

Hello. I am in a similar situation moving from Limited to Open. Shooters on this forum are awesome for contributing. 2 things have helped me. Tape/cover the muzzle side of your dot sight. You will learn quickly to develop a " target focus" necessary for capitalizing on a dot sight advantage. Then realize the dot exaggerates sighting imperfections compared to irons. You can make an "A" shot without being so precise. Good luck! ( I know I need some,lol!)

[Posvar]

13 hours ago, vgdvc said:

Hello. I am in a similar situation moving from Limited to Open. Shooters on this forum are awesome for contributing. 2 things have helped me. Tape/cover the muzzle side of your dot sight. You will learn quickly to develop a " target focus" necessary for capitalizing on a dot sight advantage. Then realize the dot exaggerates sighting imperfections compared to irons. You can make an "A" shot without being so precise. Good luck! ( I know I need some,lol!)

Thanks! Great advice. I kept waiting for the dot to settle and then would squeeze off the next round. Let's keep working at it!

 

Matt

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Another thing you can do is get one of your best local open shooters to shoot your pistol. He or she will tell you what they think of your pistol and loads. They may even let you try their pistol. This small thing may help you see what can be done with more time behind the pistol. Thanks, Eric

[NamesNotMike]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 1:56 PM, B_RAD said:

Is there any resource (e.g. books, podcast,) out there geared specifically towards open?

Not geared just for open but a great resource is Steve Andersen's podcast That Shooting Show. 

[NamesNotMike]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 7:30 PM, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: Look at the target not at the dot.

^^What Eric said.^^

My Open gun is getting fixed so I'm shooting Limited again, shooting iron sights again has been an eye opener. Shooting open I look at a target with the dot on it, this does not work so well with iron sights! I've had to practice live fire and slow down and look for\at the sights again, so now my splits were slower. I'm starting to track the sights again now and my splits are coming back.

Sounds like the reason you are not confident is you just need to practice more.  As you practice fast you will become faster. Good luck.