fishsticks Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 I stand corrected. Just went back and watched the whole thing. You are correct, under D8 as written that's not allowed.FWIW that video was released prior to the draft Appendix. Never let facts get in the way of drama. If that's referring to my comments, I fail to see the drama? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 If that's referring to my comments, I fail to see the drama? Not yours specifically - just an overall observation. Seems folks are either for it or against it. There don't seem to be too many middle of the road types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Suomi with 75. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Suomi with 75. http://www.betaco.com/cmag_products.asp?product_category=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 We've got 32 rd AR Colt stick mags for $15 each. If I was good or careful, 33 rounds would be enough. Not that I'm above throwing money at this sport. I'll go $25 each for some 40 rounders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Springer Precision had some very nice plus 10 extensions for the SIG MPX that bring capacity up to 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Suomi with 75. I just realized I have a gun for this division! Too bad the trigger is like 23lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I don't care much about making PCC and open competitive, but unlimited-capacity is going to hurt PCC just like Open guns did to USPSA before Limited came along and Limited did to new shooters before Production came along. When you have to buy "that gun and that special magazine" to be competitive (aka: "buying a win"), it's a barrier to entry and makes the gun choice boring. Sponsors and manufacturers except those that make 'that gun' and 'that mag' are nowhere to be seen. In Production different guns can play somewhat equally, especially at the local level. The same for 30 round PCCs. It's the default capacity for the vast majority of commercial, LE and military pistol carbines. A shooter can buy most any pistol carbine today and get, in the box or off the shelf, a 30-ish round mag (assuming they live in a free state): Beretta CX4 Storm comes with a 20 round mag (Beretta sells a factory 30 for about $25) 9mm ARs use Glock/Colt/Uzi/Sten mags. Standard ones hold 30-33 AR 45 & 10mm use Grease Gun mags that hold 30 Tommy guns: 30 or 50 rd drum (+$250 for the drum) CZ Scorpion: 20 (CZ sells a factory 30 for cheap) IWI Tavor: 32 round Kel Tec 9: Beretta or Glock 9 mags Kel Tec 40 : Beretta or Glock 40 mags SIG MPX: 30 Semi-auto Sten: 32 Sterling Sporter: 34 UZI carbine: 32 ATI Mil Sport: Glock mags HK MP5 & clones (MKE, POF, etc) : 30 Mech Tech: Glock, XD or STI mags Hi Point: 10 (sorry guys..) Some of those will be better than others for PCC, but at least they aren't left behind right out of the box and we aren't back to telling people "Thanks for coming out, but if you want to do well, you need to drop $2000 on this certain gun and $500 on these magazines". USPSA didn't grow a lot in those years. You, get to be the RO that has to count to 30 all the time. I am pretty sure nobody will count that high while running shooters so that makes it a rule that will not be properly enforced, that sounds like a bad way to start a division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwithnoname Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Here's the capacity for you guys. Short and sweet and I wouldn't even have to reload at the Rocky Mountian 300. Seriously though I have a few reliable 40 rounders for my MP5 that would be good for PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwithnoname Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I guess it didn't like the pic of my 100 rd drum on my mp5. Is this CNN or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 A PCC at Rocky Mountain 300, would be nothing short of awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 ......................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 ^ good one! That made me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) Folks arguing about conflicts in handgun rules with a PCC division that has not been created is well, silly. If and when the PCC division is adopted a rule set specific to that division will be created and released at that time. Until then nothing is accomplished other than nonexistent rule flagellation. Edited March 9, 2016 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Sounds like some rules have been established already: http://uspsa.org/document_library/2016/PCC%20Appendix%20for%20USPSA_D8_DNROI_posting3116.pdf Most of the points brought up in the arguing is still silly though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Sounds like some rules have been established already: http://uspsa.org/document_library/2016/PCC%20Appendix%20for%20USPSA_D8_DNROI_posting3116.pdf Most of the points brought up in the arguing is still silly though. Aren't those just proposals for comment? The division doesn't exist does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I think the BoD was supposed to be meeting like this week maybe i read somewhere? Those may just be proposed stuff, but its better than nothing. And answers some people questions about equipment, start positions etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 I think the phone meeting was yesterday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 Just write in the stage description that PCC division must complete at least one mandatory reload after first shot and before last shot in the COF. Sure, it doesn't meet all of the USPSA stage design rules - but PCC requires simple changes elsewhere so this should be okay also, right? Or since they need a special start position anyways - make all PCC starts unloaded and must pick up magazines from a table/bucket/sitting on the ground in front of the target furthest away. Sorry but mandatory reloads suck not a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. I set up matches all the time. You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away. But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport. Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar. The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 9, 2016 Share Posted March 9, 2016 In order to make people happy with the addition of PCC perhaps we should forbid the posting of "overall" results. There seems to be a faction that thinks the "overalls" matter and I feel that those people shouldn't have to fear seeing someone from another division ahead of them in a make believe list of scores. Honestly the only people who should feel proud of themselves when they look at the "overalls" are those shooting one of the low capacity divisions.This kind of condescending attitude does not make anyone more likely to support you. Just because overall results are not important to you doesn't make the fact that they are important to some less valuable.This is really tiring. For the umpteenth time, having concerns about this change does not mean that I 1) don't like fun 2) am some sniveling jerk inflating my ego by looking at overall results 3) am some backwards Luddite that is against change or 4) any other condescending or insulting descriptor that you can arrange to serve your purpose. There are legitimate concerns that legitimately need to be addressed before making what is, in truth, a major change to what has always been a pistol match. Moreover, this is not a either / or decision. In fact, there are many ways to introduce PCC into USPSA. Shoe horning it into a pistol match is but one of them. Adding it as a new discipline is another. I've laid out how to have your cake and eat it too by running this new discipline separately but concurrently with an existing handgun match - a solution that has many benefits over and above the reduction in controversy. Not condescending at all. "HOA" is an imaginary win and we need to stop posting it. Your place in your division is the only thing that is real. Everything else is outside the rules. To make this change easier we need to clarify the rules and stop catering to those who like to see an imaginary placing in an imaginary division. I think HOA is important. We have folks that are the only person shooting in their division It gives them something to look at. I know when we stopped posting the HOA results I received a bunch of requests to get it back up on the webpage. I like to track HOA as well...especially when I'm shooting anything other than Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. I set up matches all the time. You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away. But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport. Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar. The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members. I would be interesting to know what that other shooting sport is that will be as fun and challenging as USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. I set up matches all the time. You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away. But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport.Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar. The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members. I think he is as likely to stop shooting USPSA as a bunch of liberals are to make good on their promise to leave the USA if Trump is elected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport. Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar. The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members. I would be interesting to know what that other shooting sport is that will be as fun and challenging as USPSA. Yeah, nothing says challenging like shooting 10 yard targets with a rifle. LOL Edited March 10, 2016 by Strick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 10 round mag limit, just like production, most RO's can count to 11 with fingers and maybe a toe or two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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