Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[Alaskapopo]

ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me.

No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong

If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not.

Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself.

I set up matches all the time.

You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away.

But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport.

Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar.

The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members.

You may lose a few but your likely to gain far more. Honestly those saying they will leave makes no sense to me since it does not detract from their division or shooting. Its like they are mad that someone else is having fun.

[Alaskapopo]

But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport.

Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar.

The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members.

I would be interesting to know what that other shooting sport is that will be as fun and challenging as USPSA.

Yeah, nothing says challenging like shooting 10 yard targets with a rifle. LOL

Shooting fast with accuracy at CQB ranges is as much fun with a carbine as it is with a pistol or a shotgun.

[fishsticks]

Folks arguing about conflicts in handgun rules with a PCC division that has not been created is well, silly.

If and when the PCC division is adopted a rule set specific to that division will be created and released at that time.

Until then nothing is accomplished other than nonexistent rule flagellation.

Isn't the division available for use now? I thought it was once the draft appendix was published. If that's the case then you are correct. My earlier comments about rules were premised on no changes other then the appendix.

[mrpredictable]

Folks arguing about conflicts in handgun rules with a PCC division that has not been created is well, silly.

If and when the PCC division is adopted a rule set specific to that division will be created and released at that time.

Until then nothing is accomplished other than nonexistent rule flagellation.

Isn't the division available for use now? I thought it was once the draft appendix was published. If that's the case then you are correct. My earlier comments about rules were premised on no changes other then the appendix.

Those are the proposed provisional rules. They were put out for comment only.

I would guess if PCC becomes a provisional division an actual appendix will be provided and a few additional rules will be added.

[fishsticks]

Folks arguing about conflicts in handgun rules with a PCC division that has not been created is well, silly.

If and when the PCC division is adopted a rule set specific to that division will be created and released at that time.

Until then nothing is accomplished other than nonexistent rule flagellation.

Isn't the division available for use now? I thought it was once the draft appendix was published. If that's the case then you are correct. My earlier comments about rules were premised on no changes other then the appendix.

Those are the proposed provisional rules. They were put out for comment only.

I would guess if PCC becomes a provisional division an actual appendix will be provided and a few additional rules will be added.

Thanks, that makes sense. It wasn't very clear based on what I've seen and read here and on the USPSA webpage. Maybe those details were on the book of faces or the USPSA forums neither of which I use.

Regardless of my opinions on inclusion of the division, as an RO id like to be sure I both stay current and understand the rules if and when the local matches open it up.

[chevyoneton]

I notice you left out the "fun" part. .

Edit: I can't seem to quote for some reason, I was responding to post #1074.

Edited March 10, 2016 by chevyoneton

[AWLAZS]

ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me.

No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong

If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not.

Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself.

I set up matches all the time.

You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away.

But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport.

Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar.

The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members.

You may lose a few but your likely to gain far more. Honestly those saying they will leave makes no sense to me since it does not detract from their division or shooting. Its like they are mad that someone else is having fun.

What makes you say we are likely to gain far more new shooters then we would loose?

What really bugs me is the comments about how pcc will not detract from my division. How do you know that? PCC will change course design there is no way around it. Setting a stage up so that its fun to shoot with a rifle is different then fun to shoot with a handgun. Our stages and matches will change. Its just how people think when they set stuff up. A stage designer sets a stage up with an idea of how he wants folks to shoot it. It may punish or reward any one platform over the other or not. Ever shoot with a left handed guy they bitch about the right handedness of stages all the time. It has to happen, someone will walk up to set a stage up and they will say that will be a hard lean with my rifle and adjust their cof. We have had several examples of stages set up at matches that would have been impossible to shoot with a rifle. We have all seen the hold a rope in one hand and lean around the wall stages. I know there is some you tube video of someone doing it but that does not really matter I can do lots of things in practice that I would not want to try to do on the clock. People will think about that when they set stages up. They may do stuff to make PCC harder kind of a !@#$ statement or adjust it for safety or ease of use. It affects the stages I shoot.

I am not worried about being losing to a guy shooting a rifle. You guys are stuck on that. I know a few people have mentioned it not being fair between divisions because the long gun guys get to start holding their guns and its against the rules for handgun guys to do that. I don't care about that. I just like my matches the way they are.

Besides stage design influence. There is some extra work involved in preparing a match for pcc. Just in case some one shows up. I might not be huge labor intense things but its still work.

[Corey]

I design stags for our local match and adding PCC won't change how I design stages one bit. Make a fun stage with multiple ways to attack it and let shooters figure it out for their gun. If they brought a rifle and there is a hard left handed lean, so be it. They need to know how to shoot a rifle with both shoulders/hands

[Beastly]

ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me.

No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong

If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not.

Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself.

I set up matches all the time.

You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away.

But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport.

Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar.

The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members.

You may lose a few but your likely to gain far more. Honestly those saying they will leave makes no sense to me since it does not detract from their division or shooting. Its like they are mad that someone else is having fun.

What makes you say we are likely to gain far more new shooters then we would loose?

What really bugs me is the comments about how pcc will not detract from my division. How do you know that? PCC will change course design there is no way around it. Setting a stage up so that its fun to shoot with a rifle is different then fun to shoot with a handgun. Our stages and matches will change. Its just how people think when they set stuff up. A stage designer sets a stage up with an idea of how he wants folks to shoot it. It may punish or reward any one platform over the other or not. Ever shoot with a left handed guy they bitch about the right handedness of stages all the time. It has to happen, someone will walk up to set a stage up and they will say that will be a hard lean with my rifle and adjust their cof. We have had several examples of stages set up at matches that would have been impossible to shoot with a rifle. We have all seen the hold a rope in one hand and lean around the wall stages. I know there is some you tube video of someone doing it but that does not really matter I can do lots of things in practice that I would not want to try to do on the clock. People will think about that when they set stages up. They may do stuff to make PCC harder kind of a !@#$ statement or adjust it for safety or ease of use. It affects the stages I shoot.

I am not worried about being losing to a guy shooting a rifle. You guys are stuck on that. I know a few people have mentioned it not being fair between divisions because the long gun guys get to start holding their guns and its against the rules for handgun guys to do that. I don't care about that. I just like my matches the way they are.

Besides stage design influence. There is some extra work involved in preparing a match for pcc. Just in case some one shows up. I might not be huge labor intense things but its still work.

Back to the presumptions of 'undesirable change' and 'negative effect'. Now just threaten to quit over the introduction of PCC and we will have a drama trifecta. Beat that cow, it ain't dead yet!

[Bkreutz]

I think there are enough unsubstantiated "presumptions" on both sides of this issue. I do think it's humorous that each side accuses the other of being unrealistic and dramatic. Add that to the thinly veiled references to the other sides intelligence and heritage I'm surprised that this thread is still open. Maybe the moderators are on both sides of this too.

[chevyoneton]

I understand a little about stage design, and worries of designing for a certain division may have some merit. For example, a Revolver friendly stage might sneak into one month's match if a certain shooter/designer sets one up. That said, it is one stage for one month and not hardly the end of the world or sport. To hear some tell it you would think every stage every month will be PCC friendly from now on. As has been voiced in previous posts, I want to solve and shoot the stages as they come but with a PCC. I will do what it takes or take a pass on a target if I cannot engage it safely, so be it.

[Alaskapopo]

I design stags for our local match and adding PCC won't change how I design stages one bit. Make a fun stage with multiple ways to attack it and let shooters figure it out for their gun. If they brought a rifle and there is a hard left handed lean, so be it. They need to know how to shoot a rifle with both shoulders/hands

Exactly. If stages change that is something you need to bring up with your stage designers. Personally I doubt they will and if it does slightly it will just make the handgun game more fun and challenging.

Pat

[G-ManBart]

ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me.

No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong

If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not.

Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself.

I set up matches all the time.

You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away.

But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport.

Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar.

The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members.

You may lose a few but your likely to gain far more. Honestly those saying they will leave makes no sense to me since it does not detract from their division or shooting. Its like they are mad that someone else is having fun.

This is what most people call "a complete guess" because there is NO way you can know any of it.

The concept that PCC won't change things, even somewhat, is beyond ridiculous. Unintended consequences happen almost any time you change a sport, or pretty much anything else. Suggesting that all of the clubs, and all of the stage designers currently active will handle this ideally, and not mess with their stages, or change the way they plan/build stages is silly....that's not going to happen. Then we'll wind up with people making concessions to PCC at some matches, and not at others.....not what the sport needs.

There is zero proof that adding PCC will grow the sport, so that argument is out. That leaves it at "it sounds like fun, and we hope it won't mess things up, so let's try it" as the rationale supporting it.

[G-ManBart]

The other issue that has been almost completely overlooked is one of perception. Not long ago a local club in the area lost their access to a really nice range because the old guard didn't like people drawing loaded guns, moving and shooting, or rapid fire. They felt it wasn't safe, and that it didn't present the image their club wants to project to the world. They had enough revenue from regular members so they didn't care about money made from USPSA matches and they kicked the club out just because.

Just wait until some of the old guard at other clubs see people running around with an "assault rifle" and wait until those clubs lose their access....unintended consequences.

You don't grow a sport by making changes that divide or alienate the current members unless there is some overwhelmingly compelling reason to do so. The last time I saw something this divisive in USPSA it spawned IDPA.

If people are so hot and bothered to shoot rifles, they should go to rifle matches that exist for just that purpose.

[Jadeslade]

I pretty much agree with G-Man. Anyway, most people I've seen with PCC pretty much suck, so I'm concerned with the Start position. Is it low ready? I went blind trying to read this thread. If yer gonna go PCC, need to go SBR, because 16" is too long.

[Alaskapopo]

I pretty much agree with G-Man. Anyway, most people I've seen with PCC pretty much suck, so I'm concerned with the Start position. Is it low ready? I went blind trying to read this thread. If yer gonna go PCC, need to go SBR, because 16" is too long.

Lots of people suck with pistols too whats your point? 16 inches is not too long. Been using 16 inch AR's to clear buildings for a long time with out issues. USPSA stages are set up with a lot more room to move than the typical trailer house provides.

[Alaskapopo]

ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me.

No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong

If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not.

Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself.

I set up matches all the time.

You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away.

But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport.

Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar.

The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members.

You may lose a few but your likely to gain far more. Honestly those saying they will leave makes no sense to me since it does not detract from their division or shooting. Its like they are mad that someone else is having fun.

This is what most people call "a complete guess" because there is NO way you can know any of it.

The concept that PCC won't change things, even somewhat, is beyond ridiculous. Unintended consequences happen almost any time you change a sport, or pretty much anything else. Suggesting that all of the clubs, and all of the stage designers currently active will handle this ideally, and not mess with their stages, or change the way they plan/build stages is silly....that's not going to happen. Then we'll wind up with people making concessions to PCC at some matches, and not at others.....not what the sport needs.

There is zero proof that adding PCC will grow the sport, so that argument is out. That leaves it at "it sounds like fun, and we hope it won't mess things up, so let's try it" as the rationale supporting it.

There is no proof it will cause any inconvenience so that argument is out. You will get more shooters or at the very least pistol guys wanting to run 2 divisions so double the money for the club.

[twodownzero]

This is by far the most pointless, unnecessarily, and idiotic thing I have seen this sport do or even suggest for that matter.

[Alaskapopo]

This is by far the most pointless, unnecessarily, and idiotic thing I have seen this sport do or even suggest for that matter.

Funny most people (according to the poll) think its a great idea. But you are entitled to your opinion.

Pat

[ctay]

You may lose a few but your likely to gain far more. Honestly those saying they will leave makes no sense to me since it does not detract from their division or shooting. Its like they are mad that someone else is having fun.

sigh.

So draining to read these just inane "you don't agree with me so you do like fun" posts. Might as well just say "yeah, and you're ugly too!" Just tiring.

[Alaskapopo]

The other issue that has been almost completely overlooked is one of perception. Not long ago a local club in the area lost their access to a really nice range because the old guard didn't like people drawing loaded guns, moving and shooting, or rapid fire. They felt it wasn't safe, and that it didn't present the image their club wants to project to the world. They had enough revenue from regular members so they didn't care about money made from USPSA matches and they kicked the club out just because.

Just wait until some of the old guard at other clubs see people running around with an "assault rifle" and wait until those clubs lose their access....unintended consequences.

You don't grow a sport by making changes that divide or alienate the current members unless there is some overwhelmingly compelling reason to do so. The last time I saw something this divisive in USPSA it spawned IDPA.

If people are so hot and bothered to shoot rifles, they should go to rifle matches that exist for just that purpose.

Since when do we care about being PC? That is the worst reason and USPSA shooters thumbing their noses at so called assault rifle shooters is not going to grow the sport at all.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

You may lose a few but your likely to gain far more. Honestly those saying they will leave makes no sense to me since it does not detract from their division or shooting. Its like they are mad that someone else is having fun.

sigh.

So draining to read these just inane "you don't agree with me so you do like fun" posts. Might as well just say "yeah, and you're ugly too!" Just tiring.

Just about as tiring as reading all the chicken little the sky is going to fall if we let PCC in to handgun matches crap. Also I am not saying they are against fun but rather don't want others to have fun in their own division. Having PCC in a match should not make your pistol shooting more or less enjoyable as its a separate division. These point seems lost on the anti PCC group.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[IntenseImage]

Time for a name change .... USPHSA

[cnote]

I don't want to read 44 pages so question?

I live in a state with mag restrictions, so I can shoot SS, Rev, maybe production / L10 depending on state or open 10 in Hawaii, etc.

I live in a state where you can not legally own a SBR, would not a SBR be an advantage in PPC?

It seems to have taken over in the land of 3GN

Talking for those who would want to participate at an area level or greater if this division is accepted?

I can shoot a pistol at a national level and not be at a disadvantage according to the law you are stuck with.

[d_striker]

I pretty much agree with G-Man. Anyway, most people I've seen with PCC pretty much suck, so I'm concerned with the Start position. Is it low ready? I went blind trying to read this thread. If yer gonna go PCC, need to go SBR, because 16" is too long.

Lots of people suck with pistols too whats your point? 16 inches is not too long. Been using 16 inch AR's to clear buildings for a long time with out issues. USPSA stages are set up with a lot more room to move than the typical trailer house provides.

I think his point is that it's people that suck at shooting pistols that want PCC.