fishsticks Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Some folks only see what they want to see... 3:13 in the video... I stand corrected. Just went back and watched the whole thing. You are correct, under D8 as written that's not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 seems somewhat nightmarish to enforce what is 'from the shoulder' and what is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 seems somewhat nightmarish to enforce what is 'from the shoulder' and what is not. Reading it makes it sound like it's more about keeping it a shoulder fired firearm and excluding sig braces. But i agree. Further, what's the penalty if you do fire it not from the shoulder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpredictable Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Hopefully the shoulder rule is removed to make life easier for all of us. As far as 8.1 and 8.2 are concerned, adding two new rules solves cleans it up nicely. 8.1.6 Pistol Caliber Carbines (PCC) are considered single action and must have the safety engaged at the start signal 8.2.6 PCC division competitiors may start touching their firearm but may not be touching the trigger Problem solved. Edit: removed discussion on definition of illegal Edited March 7, 2016 by mrpredictable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) LOL. Sorry for the use of "illegal." Edited March 7, 2016 by Yardbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpredictable Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 LOL. Sorry for the use of "illegal." Your use was technically correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Not condescending at all. "HOA" is an imaginary win and we need to stop posting it. Your place in your division is the only thing that is real. Everything else is outside the rules. To make this change easier we need to clarify the rules and stop catering to those who like to see an imaginary placing in an imaginary division. I strongly disagree with you. In local matches there may not be many good shooters in my division, so it is very helpful to me to gauge my progress against the overall winner and against other known shooters in different divisions. And regardless of who shows up, SS and production are on entirely equal footing imho, so it is useful to compare oneself against everyone in both divisions if you shoot one of them. If you don't want to look at overall results, then don't look at them, but don't infringe on my knowledge. I get your point of view and since I don't care about the overalls I am happy to avoid looking at them. What I don't get is people that have stated that they feel PCC will have an unfair advantage in the "overalls". That I don't get at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) If a PCC competitor sets the overall HHF for a stage then it skews the results for those competing with handguns, and who want to see how they compare against the other legitimate divisions in the handgun match. Edited March 7, 2016 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 I get your point of view and since I don't care about the overalls I am happy to avoid looking at them. What I don't get is people that have stated that they feel PCC will have an unfair advantage in the "overalls". That I don't get at all. Oh, yeah, I agree with you there. I think that is just a handful of guys who shoot open in places without good open shooters. I mocked them earlier in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r01 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 I guess if the stage was nothing but 50 yard plate racks they'd have a big advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Maybe I've never understood the scoring enough for overall HHF, etc but if a PCC shooters win HOA on a stage and sets a HHF for it, can't a pistol shooter still say "well i finished 3rd on this stage and was 12% higher than guy I'm trying to beat"? You can still see where you stand compared to other pistol shooters. Just ignore where the PCC guys fall and see if your name is above or below people you want to compare to. Seems like a lot of people are making this harder than it has to be. As for the PCC idea, its a little weird I suppose and I get the "rifle at a pistol match" idea is off-putting to some. But I can't see how it'll effect me or my shooting performances. And I know of a couple people local to me who don't shoot USPSA anymore that are gung-ho to get back into it with the addition of PCC, so it may do waht HQ wants, bring in more shooters to the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 If a PCC competitor sets the overall HHF for a stage then it skews the results for those competing with handguns, and who want to see how they compare against the other legitimate divisions in the handgun match. I'm not convinced that PCC will be able to beat an open shooter by any significant margin, so I don't think that part will be much different than having a world-class open dude show up. At any rate, that is one of those fuzzy things about overall results that prevents them from being taken too seriously. You can beat someone in the unofficial overall and still lose in your division (i was on opposite sides of that conundrum a couple times last year) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walküre Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 -Eliminate props that force SHO/WHO, because people will be uncomfortable forcing one-handed rifle shooting. Mike Foley demonstrated how it can be done on an earlier video. - Eliminate some tight port shots, because of concerns with maneuvering a 16" carbine in there. Look up the VTAC barricade, the ports on that barricade are tighter than anything I've seen at a USPSA match. And rifle shooters commonly shoot all the ports on the barricade. - Eliminate any sections requiring tight movement, again because of concerns with taking a rifle through them. Mike Foley's video dealt with that too. It is simply a technique issue similar to how we learn to run up range with our gun still facing downrange. I never said that any of those things are impossible - it's simply something I see as being a likely issue. I think that a lot of MDs are not going to be comfortable forcing some of the more complicated handling scenarios on shooters, particularly when I've seen some talking about how PCC may be the newest "beginner-friendly" division. And when I'm talking about tight port shots, I'm not talking about itty-bitty ports. I'm talking about shots where you end up having to put yourself quite a bit through the port to be able to make the shot. I've shot some of the not-so-tight examples of that with my rifle, and was glad I had a 11.5" SBR rather than a 16" or 18" rifle for those, as it made maneuvering in, around, and out of the ports a lot easier. Can it be done otherwise? Of course. But I think that you'll see more stages shy away from this kind of stuff for the same reason that stage designs often try to avoid 180 traps. Side note: in the little core group I shoot with, I don't think any of us are excited at all about PCC - heck, I haven't heard anybody really express interest in running it, despite there being several PCC owners in the group. Contrast that with CO, which had several of us excited, even though none of us had eligible guns to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 As a MD if I can talk my ranges BOD into allowing them (range policy on pistol bays) I can guarantee I will change nothing in the stages I design and set up. I believe the whole point of adding PCC is because there are shooters that want to shoot them on the stages we are presenting now. Changing the stages is the last thing those interested in shooting PCC want, they have seen (and probably shot) our stages and want to shoot them with their carbine, walls. ports, odd angled leans, weak and strong side only, all of it. So far as I can tell the only "change" that has been talked about is start positions for the PCCs only, and even I'm smart enough to be able to remember that the guys with the long guns start facing down range. "there are shooters that want to shoot them on the stages we are presenting now. Changing the stages is the last thing those interested in shooting PCC want, they have seen (and probably shot) our stages and want to shoot them with their carbine, walls. ports, odd angled leans, weak and strong side only, all of it" This ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 As a MD if I can talk my ranges BOD into allowing them (range policy on pistol bays) I can guarantee I will change nothing in the stages I design and set up. I believe the whole point of adding PCC is because there are shooters that want to shoot them on the stages we are presenting now. Changing the stages is the last thing those interested in shooting PCC want, they have seen (and probably shot) our stages and want to shoot them with their carbine, walls. ports, odd angled leans, weak and strong side only, all of it. So far as I can tell the only "change" that has been talked about is start positions for the PCCs only, and even I'm smart enough to be able to remember that the guys with the long guns start facing down range. "there are shooters that want to shoot them on the stages we are presenting now. Changing the stages is the last thing those interested in shooting PCC want, they have seen (and probably shot) our stages and want to shoot them with their carbine, walls. ports, odd angled leans, weak and strong side only, all of it" This ^ Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 If a PCC competitor sets the overall HHF for a stage then it skews the results for those competing with handguns, and who want to see how they compare against the other legitimate divisions in the handgun match. I'm not convinced that PCC will be able to beat an open shooter by any significant margin, so I don't think that part will be much different than having a world-class open dude show up. At any rate, that is one of those fuzzy things about overall results that prevents them from being taken too seriously. You can beat someone in the unofficial overall and still lose in your division (i was on opposite sides of that conundrum a couple times last year) If the PCC shooter has to deal with things more or less as if they are shooting a pistol (ie: some sort of manipulation to 'draw', not just 'low ready', reloading a similar number of times and so on), then it's close but the Open shooter often wins. If the PCC shooter can start each stage low-ready and has a drum magazine and don't reload in the match except maybe one classifier, then they will usually win. That's why I like a 30-round mag limit for PCC. Easy to check and about 98% of all semi auto carbines ever made have 30 round magazines available off the shelf. There's a reason 32-round stages are so popular with match directors-- everybody has to do at least one reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) I can't wait for my HOA with my PCC. LOL. This thread is beat to death........... Edited March 8, 2016 by Onepocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 If a PCC competitor sets the overall HHF for a stage then it skews the results for those competing with handguns, and who want to see how they compare against the other legitimate divisions in the handgun match. I'm not convinced that PCC will be able to beat an open shooter by any significant margin, so I don't think that part will be much different than having a world-class open dude show up. At any rate, that is one of those fuzzy things about overall results that prevents them from being taken too seriously. You can beat someone in the unofficial overall and still lose in your division (i was on opposite sides of that conundrum a couple times last year) If the PCC shooter has to deal with things more or less as if they are shooting a pistol (ie: some sort of manipulation to 'draw', not just 'low ready', reloading a similar number of times and so on), then it's close but the Open shooter often wins. If the PCC shooter can start each stage low-ready and has a drum magazine and don't reload in the match except maybe one classifier, then they will usually win. That's why I like a 30-round mag limit for PCC. Easy to check and about 98% of all semi auto carbines ever made have 30 round magazines available off the shelf. There's a reason 32-round stages are so popular with match directors-- everybody has to do at least one reload. I disagree with your reason to create the mag limit. There is no legitimate reason to create a rule so that PCC and Open are more competitive to each other. They are two SEPARATE division. I understand some find it important to look at the overalls and that fine. In the eye's of USPSA all division are separate and rules created are for the competitive environment within that individual division. Please stop bringing up combined scores in this discussion. It does not advance the discussion or is productive. I feel the current rule with no restriction on mag capacity or length is the current path forward for a fun and competitive division. There is a limit to how many rounds you want in a mag. At some point the weight of the rounds and length of mag will a competitive disadvantage. With the speed one will need to run to be competitive in the division one reload per stage that is 29+ will require a reload regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 I don't care much about making PCC and open competitive, but unlimited-capacity is going to hurt PCC just like Open guns did to USPSA before Limited came along and Limited did to new shooters before Production came along. When you have to buy "that gun and that special magazine" to be competitive (aka: "buying a win"), it's a barrier to entry and makes the gun choice boring. Sponsors and manufacturers except those that make 'that gun' and 'that mag' are nowhere to be seen. In Production different guns can play somewhat equally, especially at the local level. The same for 30 round PCCs. It's the default capacity for the vast majority of commercial, LE and military pistol carbines. A shooter can buy most any pistol carbine today and get, in the box or off the shelf, a 30-ish round mag (assuming they live in a free state): Beretta CX4 Storm comes with a 20 round mag (Beretta sells a factory 30 for about $25) 9mm ARs use Glock/Colt/Uzi/Sten mags. Standard ones hold 30-33 AR 45 & 10mm use Grease Gun mags that hold 30 Tommy guns: 30 or 50 rd drum (+$250 for the drum) CZ Scorpion: 20 (CZ sells a factory 30 for cheap) IWI Tavor: 32 round Kel Tec 9: Beretta or Glock 9 mags Kel Tec 40 : Beretta or Glock 40 mags SIG MPX: 30 Semi-auto Sten: 32 Sterling Sporter: 34 UZI carbine: 32 ATI Mil Sport: Glock mags HK MP5 & clones (MKE, POF, etc) : 30 Mech Tech: Glock, XD or STI mags Hi Point: 10 (sorry guys..) Some of those will be better than others for PCC, but at least they aren't left behind right out of the box and we aren't back to telling people "Thanks for coming out, but if you want to do well, you need to drop $2000 on this certain gun and $500 on these magazines". USPSA didn't grow a lot in those years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 I've got several 32 round mags for my 9mm AR. A couple of 40 rounders would be cool... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanathar Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) Just write in the stage description that PCC division must complete at least one mandatory reload after first shot and before last shot in the COF. Sure, it doesn't meet all of the USPSA stage design rules - but PCC requires simple changes elsewhere so this should be okay also, right? Or since they need a special start position anyways - make all PCC starts unloaded and must pick up magazines from a table/bucket/sitting on the ground in front of the target furthest away. Edited March 8, 2016 by Xanathar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Just write in the stage description that PCC division must complete at least one mandatory reload after first shot and before last shot in the COF. Sure, it doesn't meet all of the USPSA stage design rules - but PCC requires simple changes elsewhere so this should be okay also, right? Or since they need a special start position anyways - make all PCC starts unloaded and must pick up magazines from a table/bucket/sitting on the ground in front of the target furthest away. ...and carry it back to the start position, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 I stand corrected. Just went back and watched the whole thing. You are correct, under D8 as written that's not allowed. FWIW that video was released prior to the draft Appendix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 I stand corrected. Just went back and watched the whole thing. You are correct, under D8 as written that's not allowed. FWIW that video was released prior to the draft Appendix. Never let facts get in the way of drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Never let facts get in the way of drama. True and with over 1050 replies this great delivers the drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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