Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[G-ManBart]

So are they going to change the Handgun rules to "Handgun PCC Rules" or what?

This reminds me of what happened to NASCAR....constant changes, declining participation, and loss of fan base because they strayed from their core. If you want to shoot rifles, go to a rifle match. I like rifles, and like shooting them, but not at a pistol match.

Edited March 5, 2016 by G-ManBart

[BillD]

Then don't go

[aandabooks]

At the beginning of the year I was planning to buy a 9mm carbine to play in this division. Talked myself out of it because I still have too many goals to meet on the pistol side. I'm not currently willing to give-up any of my matches where I can run my pistol in favor of PCC.

My view might change when I either reach some more of my goals or I see other people running them at my local matches.

[chevyoneton]

I actually shot a PCC (Keltec .40, Glock mag, iron sight) in our local USPSA match this morning, a first for me. Two other PCC shooters (buddies) attended, both 9mm AR carbines (iron sights). They squaded us together on the newbie squad that the MD was ROing. In short, IT WAS A COMPLETE GAS shooting the PCC, just like I hoped/thought it would be. We had to modify the start position on a couple of stages to suit a low ready start for the carbines and "weak hand only shots" were "weak shoulder" with the carbine. We PCC shooters DID NOT slow the stages down any. There was far, small steel on a couple of stages and the PCC made short work of them. Close head shots on a couple of stages were tight but doable. Had to swap shoulders several times and watch the 180 but that was all part of it. We do not have a capacity problem and in fact could have had at least one more squad and a couple more people on some of the squads. I have not shot USPSA In a year and half and the PCC got me out there. Me likee and I will be back with a PCC. I predict PCC will enhance the coffers of our small club.

[bmiller]

?

[Alaskapopo]

I actually shot a PCC (Keltec .40, Glock mag, iron sight) in our local USPSA match this morning, a first for me. Two other PCC shooters (buddies) attended, both 9mm AR carbines (iron sights). They squaded us together on the newbie squad that the MD was ROing. In short, IT WAS A COMPLETE GAS shooting the PCC, just like I hoped/thought it would be. We had to modify the start position on a couple of stages to suit a low ready start for the carbines and "weak hand only shots" were "weak shoulder" with the carbine. We PCC shooters DID NOT slow the stages down any. There was far, small steel on a couple of stages and the PCC made short work of them. Close head shots on a couple of stages were tight but doable. Had to swap shoulders several times and watch the 180 but that was all part of it. We do not have a capacity problem and in fact could have had at least one more squad and a couple more people on some of the squads. I have not shot USPSA In a year and half and the PCC got me out there. Me likee and I will be back with a PCC. I predict PCC will enhance the coffers of our small club.

What the sky did not fall. No way! I am actually pretty excited about getting to shoot it myself.

[Alaskapopo]

Then don't go

[G-ManBart]

Then don't go

You may want to explore the quote function if you want to respond to someone.

I'm waiting for someone to try making sense of adding a rifle division the the PISTOL rules....not seeing anybody coming close to it. The best people have come up with so far is "it won't hurt anything" or something along those lines.

There are already matches dedicated to 3-gun, multi-gun etc...and that's where rifles belong. Why someone feels the need to mess with pistol matches is beyond me.

For all the folks who say it won't change anything, that's simply not the case, and it's easy to prove. Now for any stage with a turning start we're going to say "oops, you have to add a table to your stage design for the PCC shooters...sorry, it's how it has to be. Too bad you can't have the stage set up the way you wanted it, there's got to be a table taking up space where you might have wanted something else." Mini-Mart? Let's just change that classifier because it won't work for PCC. Melody Line? Hmmm...guess we'll have to add a table for that as well. Gun in box stages (yes, I've seen those recently)...nope, unless you build an extra box for PCC. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

The chance that stage designs won't get altered at least a little bit is virtually nonexistent. Stage designers will see how PCC shooters game their stages, and they will respond and before you know it we could wind up with either the stupidest rifle stages or the stupidest pistol stages at the same match.

If I was running a club I know I would already be expecting that the PCC shooters are going to start complaining that clubs haven't made racks for their guns, so add that to the to-do list, along with the associated time/cost involved...every bay now needs a carbine rack, and probably an extra safe area/table to accommodate them.

[G-ManBart]

Then don't go

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense...not.

Alienate core USPSA shooters who want to shoot a pistol match without rifles by telling them not to go? These are pistol matches that fall under the pistol rules. Rifles already have their own set of rules and matches.

[Yardbird]

Then don't go

You may want to explore the quote function if you want to respond to someone.

I'm waiting for someone to try making sense of adding a rifle division the the PISTOL rules....not seeing anybody coming close to it. The best people have come up with so far is "it won't hurt anything" or something along those lines.

There are already matches dedicated to 3-gun, multi-gun etc...and that's where rifles belong. Why someone feels the need to mess with pistol matches is beyond me.

For all the folks who say it won't change anything, that's simply not the case, and it's easy to prove. Now for any stage with a turning start we're going to say "oops, you have to add a table to your stage design for the PCC shooters...sorry, it's how it has to be. Too bad you can't have the stage set up the way you wanted it, there's got to be a table taking up space where you might have wanted something else." Mini-Mart? Let's just change that classifier because it won't work for PCC. Melody Line? Hmmm...guess we'll have to add a table for that as well. Gun in box stages (yes, I've seen those recently)...nope, unless you build an extra box for PCC. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

The chance that stage designs won't get altered at least a little bit is virtually nonexistent. Stage designers will see how PCC shooters game their stages, and they will respond and before you know it we could wind up with either the stupidest rifle stages or the stupidest pistol stages at the same match.

If I was running a club I know I would already be expecting that the PCC shooters are going to start complaining that clubs haven't made racks for their guns, so add that to the to-do list, along with the associated time/cost involved...every bay now needs a carbine rack, and probably an extra safe area/table to accommodate them.

LIKE

[Alaskapopo]

Then don't go

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense...not.

Alienate core USPSA shooters who want to shoot a pistol match without rifles by telling them not to go? These are pistol matches that fall under the pistol rules. Rifles already have their own set of rules and matches.

Makes perfect sense because they can still shoot their pistols just like before. What someone else shoots should not have any bearing on their decision unless its just sour grapes. That would be like a revolver shooter saying he is going home because open shooters are allowed to shoot.

[AWLAZS]

Then don't go

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense...not.

Alienate core USPSA shooters who want to shoot a pistol match without rifles by telling them not to go? These are pistol matches that fall under the pistol rules. Rifles already have their own set of rules and matches.

Makes perfect sense because they can still shoot their pistols just like before. What someone else shoots should not have any bearing on their decision unless its just sour grapes. That would be like a revolver shooter saying he is going home because open shooters are allowed to shoot.

Hows that the same? Handgun shooting a match with other handguns . Handgun shooting a match with a rifle. To me it makes sense to say if you want to shoot a handgun go to a handgun match. If you want to shoot a rifle go to a rifle match.

If you don't like the fact that you can't shoot your rifle at the handgun match stay home.

[Alaskapopo]

Then don't go

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense...not.

Alienate core USPSA shooters who want to shoot a pistol match without rifles by telling them not to go? These are pistol matches that fall under the pistol rules. Rifles already have their own set of rules and matches.

Makes perfect sense because they can still shoot their pistols just like before. What someone else shoots should not have any bearing on their decision unless its just sour grapes. That would be like a revolver shooter saying he is going home because open shooters are allowed to shoot.

Hows that the same? Handgun shooting a match with other handguns . Handgun shooting a match with a rifle. To me it makes sense to say if you want to shoot a handgun go to a handgun match. If you want to shoot a rifle go to a rifle match.

If you don't like the fact that you can't shoot your rifle at the handgun match stay home.

Its the same because your not compeating against them. At a USPSA match there are actually several different types of matches going on at the same time. Single stack, revolver, open, Limited etc. It does not matter what the other guys are shooting. No one is making you shoot a PCC. I am all for the idea because I have seen how much fun it can be and it does not need to have its own venue any more than revolver needs to have its own venue or open. Fortunately USPSA has seen fit to offer us this division so I don't have to stay home.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[AWLAZS]

Open limited revolver etc follow the same rules same cof. Rifle will hAve jts own rules aND modified cof. How is that the same?

[Shadow]

Then don't go

You may want to explore the quote function if you want to respond to someone.

I'm waiting for someone to try making sense of adding a rifle division the the PISTOL rules....not seeing anybody coming close to it. The best people have come up with so far is "it won't hurt anything" or something along those lines.

There are already matches dedicated to 3-gun, multi-gun etc...and that's where rifles belong. Why someone feels the need to mess with pistol matches is beyond me.

For all the folks who say it won't change anything, that's simply not the case, and it's easy to prove. Now for any stage with a turning start we're going to say "oops, you have to add a table to your stage design for the PCC shooters...sorry, it's how it has to be. Too bad you can't have the stage set up the way you wanted it, there's got to be a table taking up space where you might have wanted something else." Mini-Mart? Let's just change that classifier because it won't work for PCC. Melody Line? Hmmm...guess we'll have to add a table for that as well. Gun in box stages (yes, I've seen those recently)...nope, unless you build an extra box for PCC. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

The chance that stage designs won't get altered at least a little bit is virtually nonexistent. Stage designers will see how PCC shooters game their stages, and they will respond and before you know it we could wind up with either the stupidest rifle stages or the stupidest pistol stages at the same match.

If I was running a club I know I would already be expecting that the PCC shooters are going to start complaining that clubs haven't made racks for their guns, so add that to the to-do list, along with the associated time/cost involved...every bay now needs a carbine rack, and probably an extra safe area/table to accommodate them.

LIKE

+1

[fishsticks]

Then don't go

You may want to explore the quote function if you want to respond to someone.

I'm waiting for someone to try making sense of adding a rifle division the the PISTOL rules....not seeing anybody coming close to it. The best people have come up with so far is "it won't hurt anything" or something along those lines.

There are already matches dedicated to 3-gun, multi-gun etc...and that's where rifles belong. Why someone feels the need to mess with pistol matches is beyond me.

For all the folks who say it won't change anything, that's simply not the case, and it's easy to prove. Now for any stage with a turning start we're going to say "oops, you have to add a table to your stage design for the PCC shooters...sorry, it's how it has to be. Too bad you can't have the stage set up the way you wanted it, there's got to be a table taking up space where you might have wanted something else." Mini-Mart? Let's just change that classifier because it won't work for PCC. Melody Line? Hmmm...guess we'll have to add a table for that as well. Gun in box stages (yes, I've seen those recently)...nope, unless you build an extra box for PCC. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

The chance that stage designs won't get altered at least a little bit is virtually nonexistent. Stage designers will see how PCC shooters game their stages, and they will respond and before you know it we could wind up with either the stupidest rifle stages or the stupidest pistol stages at the same match.

If I was running a club I know I would already be expecting that the PCC shooters are going to start complaining that clubs haven't made racks for their guns, so add that to the to-do list, along with the associated time/cost involved...every bay now needs a carbine rack, and probably an extra safe area/table to accommodate them.

LIKE

+1

+2

I'd love to see PCC as a stand alone division, and it fits fine in Steel Challenge and Multi-Gun. Making changes the pistol portion of our sport that may impact the majority of our membership and matches just because the minority thinks something would be fun makes no sense whatsoever to me.

[TaterHead]

Finally some folks talking sense about the insanity of adding rifles to a pistol match. Thank you.

[Nimitz]

Then don't go

You may want to explore the quote function if you want to respond to someone.

I'm waiting for someone to try making sense of adding a rifle division the the PISTOL rules....not seeing anybody coming close to it. The best people have come up with so far is "it won't hurt anything" or something along those lines.

There are already matches dedicated to 3-gun, multi-gun etc...and that's where rifles belong. Why someone feels the need to mess with pistol matches is beyond me.

For all the folks who say it won't change anything, that's simply not the case, and it's easy to prove. Now for any stage with a turning start we're going to say "oops, you have to add a table to your stage design for the PCC shooters...sorry, it's how it has to be. Too bad you can't have the stage set up the way you wanted it, there's got to be a table taking up space where you might have wanted something else." Mini-Mart? Let's just change that classifier because it won't work for PCC. Melody Line? Hmmm...guess we'll have to add a table for that as well. Gun in box stages (yes, I've seen those recently)...nope, unless you build an extra box for PCC. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

The chance that stage designs won't get altered at least a little bit is virtually nonexistent. Stage designers will see how PCC shooters game their stages, and they will respond and before you know it we could wind up with either the stupidest rifle stages or the stupidest pistol stages at the same match.

If I was running a club I know I would already be expecting that the PCC shooters are going to start complaining that clubs haven't made racks for their guns, so add that to the to-do list, along with the associated time/cost involved...every bay now needs a carbine rack, and probably an extra safe area/table to accommodate them.

LIKE

+1

+2

I'd love to see PCC as a stand alone division, and it fits fine in Steel Challenge and Multi-Gun. Making changes the pistol portion of our sport that may impact the majority of our membership and matches just because the minority thinks something would be fun makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Yep, pretty simple. You want to add rifles to USPSA matches that are not part of 3-gun? Great, just setup a separate match, with rules that fit the guns to be used and stage design to accomodate and you're off and running.

Rifles no more belong in a USPSA handgun match then shotguns do .... Or bows and arrows, water cannons or Rambo shoulder fired machine guns ..... Of course if you rip off a piece of a dress from a female spectator and tie it around your head as a bandana we'll probably have to consider letting you shoot the machine gun ....

[Alaskapopo]

Open limited revolver etc follow the same rules same cof. Rifle will hAve jts own rules aND modified cof. How is that the same?

For all intents and purposes its the same on both counts. Besides why do you care if a carbine shooter starts at the low ready. YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING AGAINST THEM! There is a whole lot of whining going on for no reason. How someone else shoots in another division does nothing to take away from your division.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

Then don't go

You may want to explore the quote function if you want to respond to someone.

I'm waiting for someone to try making sense of adding a rifle division the the PISTOL rules....not seeing anybody coming close to it. The best people have come up with so far is "it won't hurt anything" or something along those lines.

There are already matches dedicated to 3-gun, multi-gun etc...and that's where rifles belong. Why someone feels the need to mess with pistol matches is beyond me.

For all the folks who say it won't change anything, that's simply not the case, and it's easy to prove. Now for any stage with a turning start we're going to say "oops, you have to add a table to your stage design for the PCC shooters...sorry, it's how it has to be. Too bad you can't have the stage set up the way you wanted it, there's got to be a table taking up space where you might have wanted something else." Mini-Mart? Let's just change that classifier because it won't work for PCC. Melody Line? Hmmm...guess we'll have to add a table for that as well. Gun in box stages (yes, I've seen those recently)...nope, unless you build an extra box for PCC. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

The chance that stage designs won't get altered at least a little bit is virtually nonexistent. Stage designers will see how PCC shooters game their stages, and they will respond and before you know it we could wind up with either the stupidest rifle stages or the stupidest pistol stages at the same match.

If I was running a club I know I would already be expecting that the PCC shooters are going to start complaining that clubs haven't made racks for their guns, so add that to the to-do list, along with the associated time/cost involved...every bay now needs a carbine rack, and probably an extra safe area/table to accommodate them.

LIKE

+1

+2

I'd love to see PCC as a stand alone division, and it fits fine in Steel Challenge and Multi-Gun. Making changes the pistol portion of our sport that may impact the majority of our membership and matches just because the minority thinks something would be fun makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Actually according to the polls the majority thinks it would be fun.

[AWLAZS]

You are right the poll that no one really knows about is leaning towards yes. What 100 people responded?

[Alaskapopo]

You are right the poll that no one really knows about is leaning towards yes. What 100 people responded?

Polls are indicative of the whole population that is kind of the point. If the majority of people were against it USPSA would not be bringing us this division. There is no good argument against it that I have heard. People whine about allowing long guns into a handgun match but don't offer any substance of why they think it will hurt their shooting experience in their own division.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[ctay]

A scientific poll could be indicative of the whole population. An internet poll on a forum only shows you what the people who saw the poll think and therefore has absolutely no ability to be projected to the larger population.

Edited March 6, 2016 by ctay

[ctay]

Look, there is no question that adding PCC to USPSA handgun matches will have an impact. It just is not intellectually honest to say it won't. It will likely be a small impact, and there very well may be positives that outweigh the impact, but there will be one.

Moreover, the "we don't compete against other divisions" argument simply doesn't hold up to reality. While officially you can only "win" your division, the is a very real and valid reason that people look for the "combined" results at the end of a match - they are comparing themselves to everyone in the match. Can you really tell me you've never heard anyone say "I was 2nd in my division and 4th overall" or similar?

[Chuck Anderson]

Then don't go

You may want to explore the quote function if you want to respond to someone.

I'm waiting for someone to try making sense of adding a rifle division the the PISTOL rules....not seeing anybody coming close to it. The best people have come up with so far is "it won't hurt anything" or something along those lines.

There are already matches dedicated to 3-gun, multi-gun etc...and that's where rifles belong. Why someone feels the need to mess with pistol matches is beyond me.

For all the folks who say it won't change anything, that's simply not the case, and it's easy to prove. Now for any stage with a turning start we're going to say "oops, you have to add a table to your stage design for the PCC shooters...sorry, it's how it has to be. Too bad you can't have the stage set up the way you wanted it, there's got to be a table taking up space where you might have wanted something else." Mini-Mart? Let's just change that classifier because it won't work for PCC. Melody Line? Hmmm...guess we'll have to add a table for that as well. Gun in box stages (yes, I've seen those recently)...nope, unless you build an extra box for PCC. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

The chance that stage designs won't get altered at least a little bit is virtually nonexistent. Stage designers will see how PCC shooters game their stages, and they will respond and before you know it we could wind up with either the stupidest rifle stages or the stupidest pistol stages at the same match.

If I was running a club I know I would already be expecting that the PCC shooters are going to start complaining that clubs haven't made racks for their guns, so add that to the to-do list, along with the associated time/cost involved...every bay now needs a carbine rack, and probably an extra safe area/table to accommodate them.

Strawman argument much? Aghhhhh, stuff will have to be added! Stuff will have to be changed! Or maybe it won't. Facing up range pistol, PCC start facing downrange at low ready. Pistol gun in box, PCC start facing downrange at low ready. There are much simpler fixes than the ones you propose. PCC shooters want a rack? They can build their own, squad together and take it with them. This is not that difficult. As far as why in a pistol match instead of a 3 Gun match. It's a lot easier to change nothing than to try and set up two sets of targets. One for rifle and one for PCC. PCC is not really a viable option at 500 yards. Or really even 200. You can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me.