rbebeau Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 There has been a lot of talk about too many divisions 'watering down' the sport and HQ making decisions without input from the membership. So lets get some data! Do you think USPSA should eliminate a division? You can vote for multiple ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 If you vote no you have to select a division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Halley Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 So vote for Open....hehehe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 That was a no brainer! I'm amazed at the number of votes to eliminate L10. Remember, there are some areas that still restrict mag capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 In those areas with mag restrictions in Limited don't they run 10 rds? If that is the case, why do we need Lim 10. Essentially, Limited becomes Lim 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) That was a no brainer! I'm amazed at the number of votes to eliminate L10. Remember, there are some areas that still restrict mag capacity. The rules already cover that, in states with restricted capacity Limited is restricted to the state limit. Of course that doesn't cover the fact that in theory those folks can't compete at the national level due to a presumed lack of equipment. Of course, revolver is eliminating itself if we are honest. Edited September 21, 2015 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericridebike Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 In those areas with mag restrictions in Limited don't they run 10 rds? If that is the case, why do we need Lim 10. Essentially, Limited becomes Lim 10. That's my understanding of how it works in states that restrict magazine capacity. Would there be any guns really impacted in non magazine restriction states if L10 was eliminated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) I voted to eliminate L-10, Carry Optics and Revolver. Production was invented for 10 round sticks, Carry Optics guys should just spend the money and go Open, and Revolver guys have their own game, ICORE. Personally there should only be 2 divisions: Unlimited, Rules, must only be a pistol caliber. No restrictions on gun or gear, anything goes. As Designed, Rules, 100% OEM factory parts, no modifications except sights and grips. Gear, single belt only, bucket holster and mag pouches must loop thru belt. Major at 175PF and Minor at 150PF. Edited September 21, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisenhow Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 In those areas with mag restrictions in Limited don't they run 10 rds? If that is the case, why do we need Lim 10. Essentially, Limited becomes Lim 10. It depends on the state. In NY they've gotten rid of all preban grandfathering so Limited effectively becomes L10. However, in states like Massachusetts we have grandfathered prebans. I can shoot Limited with a Glock and preban mags. However no prebans exist for M&P40Pro so I shoot it in L10. If L10 went away I could either be at a severe disadvantage, chance being a felon, or not play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 How is the administrative burden on clubs and HQ reduced by eliminating divisions? If there is any burden reduction, is it significant or imaginary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Wonder if Prod, Lmtd 10, Rev and SS could all be combined (seriously). Much of a disadvantage to anyone? 10 shot Prod & Lmtd 10, 8 shot rev & SS? Not much of a difference, is there, really? This way you have Ltd, Open and Other... Just a thought. Flame away ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 it wouldn't bother me to combine L10 and ss and maybe even production, especially at local matches. it also wouldn't bother me to require 15-20 shooters in a division to recognize it at L2 or L3 matches. But honestly I don't care that much. When I shoot any limited capacity division, I compare my scores to all the other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakemaul Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Here's how many classifier runs have been shot in each division, going back to around mid-2006... only counting cases where the full match was reported to USPSA, so there's a lot missing, but I don't think it would have much affect on the relative rankings. Restricting to only matches in 2015 doesn't change anything significantly, except PROD and LTD switch... but they're pretty close either way. | REV | 11199 || LTDTEN | 28300 || SS | 48551 || OPEN | 62462 || LTD | 114657 || PROD | 116103 | Carry Optics obviously doesn't have enough data to rank yet. If we did want to eliminate a division, L-10 is the obvious choice. Revo is lesser shot, but is so different that those folks don't really have a good other home. L-10 shooters can shoot Lim or sometimes Prod. The USPSA world clearly "revolves" around Production and Limited, and Open barely manages to keep up with 1/2 of either one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 looks like we have our answer .... open limited Production However, I'm with 9x45 ... mostly: we only need 2 divisions: Open .. unrestricted except that it must be a pistol caliber & PF 165 Production: as it comes from the manufacturer except for grips/sights & no mods, period. However, I'm ok with the current rules for belt, holster & mag pouches ... PF 125 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Fascinating stats! Here is a visual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Admiral Nimitz, my weak suck .357SIG reloads out of my G31 make 175PF easy, and my G17 throws 125's at 150PF, thats where I get the numbers from. Wouldn't you rather be a BattleShip, or a PBR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 A single year of data will not indicate a trend, and if considering changes to divisions then a trend analysis would be prudent. If this data is available for the past 10-15 years then plotting that on a line graph would help in determining which way the sport is headed with regard to participation across the divisions. L-10 may have low numbers now but if those numbers are consistent over a long period of time then dismantling it may cause a loss of members. If however, the trend is downward then USPSA could use that information to either tweak the division to make it more palatable or reach out to those that compete in that division to see what the impact would be of elimination. Incidentally if such data were available I suspect that Open would indicate a decline over the past ten years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10mmdave Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) First off, the poll is no good, how can you pick NOT to eliminate a division and then have to pick a division ??? Second, what the hell is wantered down ?? The prize money ?!? The prize selection ?!? This comes up every couple of years, dang limited/lim10/Single Stack/Productions guys tired of getting whipped by us lowly revolver shooters Revolver is the smallest division because it's the HARDEST division. Edited September 21, 2015 by 10mmdave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Why eliminate a division, I don't understand the reasoning behind it besides what I've heard of getting rid of bloat? Last time I checked people that shoot Limited 10 is because they WANT TO SHOOT LIMITED 10, why are we forcing them out of that division? Are we doing it for lvl 2 matches and above to get rid of the "hiding" Mentality? Then why don't we emplace a rule that states if X amount of shooters do not sign up for the division, the division will not be recognized offically at the lvl2/lvl3 match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 In those areas with mag restrictions in Limited don't they run 10 rds? If that is the case, why do we need Lim 10. Essentially, Limited becomes Lim 10. It's goofy, but some states allow you to shoot hi cap mags if you already had them but restrict you to limits if you didn't. In those few places L10 does serve a purpose. Other than that it's just a hiding spot or worse, a division to enter if a gun or some other prize is going to the winner. We all know people who have signed up to shoot L10 at a big match because they now have 1 in 10 chance to win a gun as opposed to Limited being 1 in 60. But I still say it's a valid division for some. CO is really the only one that doesn't fit is USPSA since we are not the "carry" oriented sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I voted no and then checked every box in part 2. That way I don't skew the survey results unevenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tha1000 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 In those areas with mag restrictions in Limited don't they run 10 rds? If that is the case, why do we need Lim 10. Essentially, Limited becomes Lim 10. That's my understanding of how it works in states that restrict magazine capacity. Would there be any guns really impacted in non magazine restriction states if L10 was eliminated? Wilson KZ45.. which I've always wanted, and dang near talked myself into using L10 as an excuse... alas, the cons always outweigh my want for that particular gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Why in the hell does anyone care about what everyone else shoots? Shoot what you want, and let everyone else do the same. I don't believe that having 6,7, or 15 divisions puts any extra burden on HQ and lets see, at a club match we already have to enter a division for each shooter, so is scrolling a little further a big deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDRODA396 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Why in the hell does anyone care about what everyone else shoots? Shoot what you want, and let everyone else do the same. I don't believe that having 6,7, or 15 divisions puts any extra burden on HQ and lets see, at a club match we already have to enter a division for each shooter, so is scrolling a little further a big deal? I agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I edited the poll to actually make it possible to vote "No." Prior to adding the choice "None" the poll required one to pick a division to eliminate..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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